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VGC 2016 - Format Rules Announced

Discussion in 'Festival Plaza' started by Reborn, Dec 9, 2015.

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  1. Reborn

    Reborn Signature Creator

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    Hey everybody, just posting to raise some discussion over the new rules for the VGC 2016 format which have been announced on the official Pokémon site.
    Here's the article http://www.pokemon.com/uk/pokemon-news/the-2016-video-game-championship-format-has-been-announced/

    Essentially, the main change is the fact that many of the 'uber' legendaries (Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde) are being introduced in to the format, with a limit of 2 of these listed Pokémon per team. Mega Rayquaza and the Primals will be allowed in this new format. This change makes the format very similar to the VGC10 ruleset.

    What do you think about this change? Do you think it will make the tier a bit more diverse?

    At the moment I'm not sure what to think of this change. I'm not familiar with the VGC10 ruleset, but I've heard it was rather diverse and less centralised around 2 Pokémon. However, including Pokémon with constant weather abilities makes a lot of Pokémon like Tyranitar which were apparently strong during VGC10 obsolete. I'm not sure this will change the Mega Kangaskhan spam, since other than Mega Rayquaza there's still little reason not to use her. I'm not sure I like the way this will affect the format, but I guess time can only tell.
     
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  2. East

    East Look to the Stars

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    Oh my fricken gosh. I learned about this today, and I was a little pissed off, to be honest.

    VGC15 was bad enough, but VGC16 is looking to be 100% M-Kanga + Xerneas spam, with only counters/checks to that combination. VGC10's lead is not one to be followed, and I'm disappointed that the metagame I started playing competitive Pokémon with is going to degenerate even more.
    As with the over-centralization thread @[member="Sachi-Shimazu"] posted, I stand my ground that every metagame has some centralizing Pokémon. However, this is a bit ridiculous.
     
  3. Garudarocks

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    [​IMG]
    The Championships next year^
     
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  4. East

    East Look to the Stars

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    This too, seriously. I'm not sure what GameFreak was on when they thought this as a good idea.
     
  5. Reborn

    Reborn Signature Creator

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    I'm not so sure about this. Yes it's ridiculously powerful and the only Mega able to carry an item, but it would take up both your Mega slot and one of your 2 uber spots. I could believe that Mega Kangaskhan still has as high usage as Mega Rayquaza. I think we will see a lot more of Pokémon like Xerneas and Primal Groudon with less of an opportunity cost to using them. Then again who knows.
     
  6. East

    East Look to the Stars

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    While that's true, I think even the use of Rayquaza is going to be a huge threat, since even before its mega, it was one of the most used Ubers. Mega Rayquaza spam will be in the lower level and some mid-level battles, but I think the two Ubers of choice in the higher level battles are going to be Xerneas and Groudon. Both paired with M-Kanga are huge problems no matter how you look at it.
     
  7. Garudarocks

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    Also, there's a reason M-Rayquaza was banned from Ubers.
     
  8. Reborn

    Reborn Signature Creator

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    Yes, it's very difficult to deal with in a singles format. Not so much in doubles. With redirection support, speed control, correct protect plays and capitalisation on its weaknesses I think M-Rayquaza will be manageable in the format. With Pokémon like Dialga being able to check it easily and set up trick room for other members to also deal with it I don't think it will be as broken as it was in Ubers (you see cases like that all the time, like blaziken, mega gengar and mega lucario, where just because they are broken in singles doesn't mean they are common at all in doubles).

    As for regular Rayquaza, I don't really see a situation where it would be worth using regular rayquaza over Mega. If Rayquaza fits a role on your team you would pick Mega Rayquaza over regular Rayquaza since either way you are using one of your 2 'uber' Pokémon, so essentially you are swapping out your Mega slot for a brilliant flying STAB, 30 more stats in your already ridiculous and 20 points in speed bringing you to base 115 and removal of your weaknesses from your flying type, all for the price of not being able to bring Mega Kang. I'm sure regular rayquaza was a huge threat, and still could be, but that was when there was no mega option and at least to me sacrificing your Mega slot is worth all of those advantages, and being able to bring an item brings the possibility of more interesting sets like Haban berry or a choice item.

    I think the main reason somebody wouldn't want to bring Mega Rayquaza is they would have to give up a Pokémon like Dialga, Xerneas or the Primals in order to use it, not so much not being able to bring another Mega.
     
  9. Doomhound

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    After a few fights in 2016 on showdown- as predicted, tons of xerneas. What I'll assume is coming is either mega kang/xerneas as the fake out geomancy, or what I also fought was xerneas/primal kyogre. geomancy followed by psych up...

    This is unreal. Nothing stands a chance. The game requires either mega kangashkan or something you have to soft reset for. I'm sure mega ray will be abused lots, as well as primal groudon/kyogre. xerneas with dazzling gleam and kyogre with origin pulse both hit both opponents for incredibly strong damage. There's a line between OP legendaries and these mega ray/mewtwo or primals with BST 780. VGC10 might have had a few people stand up the legends, but anything that was borderline viable in 2015 is totally unusable in 2016. You HAVE to have your two BST 680 legends, and one or both better have primal/mega on it. The rest of your team has to be able to stand that up. The only thing with enough defense and still good attack power is these other legendaries that aren't deemed threatening enough. If pokegen wasn't a big enough presence already...

    So yeah I'm totally pissed. My team tested and true creative original and fun and creative that I made for 2015 is completely useless. Non-legends don't stand any chance anymore. Even pseudos struggle. Now I have to carry the salt of the genies along with MEWTWO, XERNEAS, PRIMAL KYOGRE, PRIMAL GROUDON, MEGA RAYQUAZA...

    RIP creativity. Apparently VGC 10 was won by trick room mewtwo with a parasect. Sounds awesome, but I really really struggle to envision such a grassroots team making it far enough in the current meta. This meta is so evolved into the safest options and the teams that counter themselves and are so refined as to carry almost the exact same Pokémon everytime. Banning genies would open so many more options, but instead they include a list of "must have" Pokémon. I hope you can taste the salt from here. I'm literally choking on salt
     
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  10. Pitmore

    Pitmore Mild Internal Pain

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    This was a turn in a bad direction. There will be spam, you will not like it.

    However, these Pokémon seem to be very weak to speed control, meaning that a well-placed Icy Wind can really cripple them. But either way, this isn't the best idea.

    This is Theorymonning though, so don't lose hope yet
     
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  11. Maantijger

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    It's shame creativity will be limited with such powerful Pokémon now, but you can't underestimate the good players' creativity. It's up to the community to figure out a way to make this format fun, in my opinion. I do think they're overcentralizing the metagame too much though, everything's probably gonna either be a powerhouse or a counter to a powerhouse. Next year around this time we'll know if this was a fun format to play or not, it's a little to early to write it off already.
     
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  12. East

    East Look to the Stars

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    I know that redirection is a huge strategy in VGC, especially since I was one of the frontrunning players that used it in VGC 2013 at nationals. However, regardless of the Pokémon that are using redirection, it's basically a "sack slot" when the redirected move is from an Uber.
    Let's assume the move user is Xerneas with Moonblast (even though Dazzling Gleam would be better for doubles), redirector is Amoonguss with Rage Powder. The common spreads would KO Amoonguss without any trouble, and even full Sp Def and HP EVs with +SpDef nature on Amoonguss will render it nearly useless:
    252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 185-218 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Redirection in VGC 16 won't be as common as previous metagames, in my opinion. With Ubers like Groudon and Xerneas (my predicted most-used for this season) getting access to Earthquake and Dazzling Gleam and other wide range moves, it won't mean much to redirect anymore.
     
  13. Shayminlover123

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    I can honestly say that I really hate these rules.

    Mainly because of the fact that Xerneas and Primal Groudon/ Kyogre are almost everywhere. (Geomancy + Psych Up. Goodness.) And well...lots of other reasons.

    I can't even come up with anything original like I did any other year since every team I've made so far had bit the dust, though they did seem like good ideas on paper.
     
  14. sohrob101

    sohrob101 Destiny Draw!

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    I'm late to the party sad to say, but here are my thoughts on the meta after overhyping over it.
    I took some time to analyze a few things, understand certain new Pokémon strengths and combos. For many this new meta isn't one that is appreciated and for fair enough reasons too. This meta isn't too spectacular considering primals and mega legendaries, but if we were to take those out of the picture, we would essentially have a meta similar to 2010, only including Zygarde, Xerneas, and Yveltal to the legendary mix. That is not to say that this meta is 100% terrible as it opens a lot of cool combos with Pokémon that you couldn't really use in previous metas. Houndoom is now an easily viable option to run, because originally it had trouble of using it's ability efficiently. Not only does Primal Groudons sun protect it from one of its weaknesses, but as well as give it that nice fire boost it really needs. Delta stream gives flying types a lot more bulk and advantage too, for one, the genies have even more ground to cover than usual. Kyogre overall is nothing special, other than you can run grass types safely. Maybe combo Kyogre with Sceptile hmmm? There are too many things I have learned that I can't share here, but my initial thoughts are, give this new ruleset some time. I agree with a lot of people that this new meta isn't the best, but it's definitely more creative than 2015's meta, that got stale pretty quick. As a VGC Player, i'm going to have fun building different team combos with the new restricted legendaries.

    P.S. Rip Sand, and Hail, you will be somewhat missed.
    P.S.S. A lot of people are looking at this from a singles perspective, and should understand that when we consider doubles, many Pokémon we see as super broken in singles, have holes in doubles. I hope to make a longer analysis post on VGC 2016.
     
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  15. Garudarocks

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    That's because everyone kept using many of the same mons. The same exact thing will probably happen this time. It's not that the Pokémon combos aren't out there, but that the players aren't using them.
     
  16. Doomhound

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    After playing more and more of this format, and having relative success in battle, its grown on me a little. That's probably just success growing on me, though, not the format. As I've seen so far, this is a weather war of a tier. If you can catch your opponent with 2 Pokémon left and switch the weather on his primal, your primal will destroy it and he will have no way of changing the weather. In that regard it is very important to keep your primal ready for the switch-in. I also have noticed that trick room is the answer to everything. Other than ferrothorn, it seems everybody wants fast primals and megas. My trick room dialga can take hits from most stuff, set up the room, and allow my own primal, my scizor, my eelektross, and machamp to go to work. Focus sash scizor is great for xerneas, as the SD bullet punch will OHKO. Wide guard is something you should bring on at least one Pokémon (I use machamp), since origin pulse and precipice blades hit both Pokémon and are almost guaranteed to show up on a team. Psych up is another fun xerneas counter, if you want to use that on something like primal kyogre. Eelektross has had surprising success for me- i picked him because he will destroy primal kyogre while at least being immune to groudon's ground moves. Wild charge is strong and doesn't worry about primal kyogre's special defense. He thrives in trick room, and also has fire punch if there is ever sun to be taken advantage of. True, he doesn't touch primal groudon, but I run so many primal groudon counters on my team anyways that it doesn't seem to be an issue. Also, I don't see hardly any mega ray. When I do though... its darn scary.

    All in all, yes there are counters. The game plays out so differently however. There aren't really any safe switch-ins anymore, a resisted move is probably going to do 40-50% of your health anyways. You need a strong start and a way to beat a primal.
     
  17. Pitmore

    Pitmore Mild Internal Pain

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    Nice brag there :P

    I've done a bit more research and this play is not bad, but risky. If it works, then we'll have Pokémon like Cresselia with icy wind and Clefable with redirection, yet Kanga and Xerneas with Redirection will be centralizing.

    Then again, are we looking a little too sourly at this? Centralization means that new things must be used to counter it! If you leave any tier long enough, it will balance out. Yes, MRay will still be on every team and decimate unprepared teams, teams will have to be prepared and it separates the strong from the week largely. This can be good, yet bad.

    Well, thats me all VGC'd out, now, where's my LC?
     
  18. Reborn

    Reborn Signature Creator

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    From the few matches I've played, Role Play on a Prankster Pokémon can at times be seriously clutch to remove an unsuspecting Primal Groudon by removing the sun when used on your Kyogre.


    Have you considered Thundurus over Eelektross? I just feel like in such an offensive metagame Eelektross just doesnt have the offences or utility to stand up to the restricted Pokémon. Thundurus beats Kyogre, is also immune to Groudon's STAB and can bring far more utility (Speed control, role play support to win the weather war with your Kyogre, Taunt to prevent gimmicks/set up) and more offensive potential. Does Eelektross actually survive anything that Thundurus doesn't? As you said, not having a weakness isn't a hugely desirable trait when dealing with these monsters and other than that Eelektross just doesn't seem to bring much to the table. Btw, I'd watch out for Cresselia + Groudon TR teams, Cress often carries gravity to remove ground immunties (hitting both of these Pokémon for super effective damage).
     
  19. Doomhound

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    My issue with thundurus lies mostly in speed, as I run a trick room heavy team. That, and kyogre's special bulk is something that you won't easily break with thundurus. Eelektross isn't perfect, but I'm gonna keep running with him and see where it leads. My biggest issue is finding a mega ray counter, because even ice types are gonna get destroyed. mega ray destroys my trick room person and leaves me in a horrible position if its led. All around he just busts everything really...
     
  20. Northwind's Call

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    Hello, everyone! Hope you're having a nice day so far.

    I noticed this thread the other day and figured I'd put out my thoughts on the format so far, while answering some complaints and questions about the format in general. A lot of the stuff in this thread is pretty interesting to discuss, but rather than looking at guesswork and predictions, we can actually look at real information on the VGC'16 format, thanks to Japanese website eSports Runner (see: http://esports-runner.com/ ).

    While most of their work currently focuses on the VGC'15 format and others before it (they've got a lot of cool information really), they also published an article on Japan's Gloria Classic, an annual tournament that they run every year (see: http://esports-runner.com/pokemon-double/126776-2/ ).

    For those who don't want to copypaste everything through Google Translate, here are the highlights;

    The top 5 most used Pokémon were Xerneas at 62%, then Groudon at 55%, then Kangaskhan at 48%, then Cresselia at 43%, then Kyogre at 37%. The 10th most-used Pokémon was Liepard, at 24%. A total of 63 different Pokémon were used out of a pool of 98 participants.

    Let's take a look at some other tournaments in recent history.

    For VGC'15 Worlds (see http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/933-teams-from-the-2015-pok%C3%A9mon-world-championships/ ); the top 5 most used Pokémon were Landorus-Therian at 57%, then Heatran at 42%, then Kangaskhan at 41%, then Cresselia at 35%, then Thundurus-Incarnate at 35% as well. The 10th most-used Pokémon was Rotom-W, at 15%. A total of 76 different Pokémon were used out of a pool of 77 participants. In comparison to the Gloria Classic, VGC'15 Worlds was a vastly more diverse metagame.

    For VGC'15 Winter regionals (see http://nuggetbridge.com/forums/topic/14358-vgc-2015-winter-regional-usage-statistics/ ), the first in which the VGC'15 rules were officially used, the top 5 most used Pokémon were Kangaskhan at 36%, followed by Landorus-Therian at 33%, then Terrakion at 32%, then Thundurus-Incarnate at 27%, then Heatran at 25%. The 10th most-used Pokémon was Rotom-W at 19%.

    So... what does this mean?

    In general, it means that metagames do become more centralized as time passes-- but it should also be noted that some Pokémon see their glory early in the metagame and disappear later on. For example, Terrakion, who clocked in on nearly a third of the teams that top cut at some winter regional in 2015, showed up on a measly 7% of Worlds competitors' teams. Poor guy.

    While it's fairly likely none of the big names on the VGC'16 Gloria Classic list will be disappearing like Terrakion did, it should also be noted that this list will change as time goes on. It is by no means an end-all statement, but the Japan players have been doing this for a while now.

    Another interesting piece of note is this massive number of support-based Pokémon; as people turn to their Mega Evolutions and restricted Legends to deal damage to the enemy team, the remaining two or three Pokémon are typically designed to help these Pokémon do as much damage as possible, or to check enemy restricted Legends. Looking at the Gloria Cup once again (see http://esports-runner.com/pokemon-double/126776-2/ ), most of the heavy damage dealers occupy the top 10 (see Xerneas, Groudon, Kangaskhan, Kyogre, Salamence, and Mawile)-- but after that things start to get shaky. While Cresselia's excellent bulk and access to speed control place her as one of the premier supporters, after that things start to get interesting. Amoonguss, Thundurus, and Liepard are no surprises in rounding out the top 10, with Amoonguss's bulk and access to Spore and Rage Powder, as well as Gastro Acid to shut down Primal weather on switches or under Trick Room, as well as Thundurus and Liepard's access to Prankster Swagger, Thunder Wave, Taunt, and others are all expected pieces.

    After this, however, things start getting tricky. From 11-20, Rayquaza, Landorus-Therian, and Ferrothorn are the only three that qualify as all-out attackers; Talonflame, Aegislash, Weavile, and Gengar offer supporting options with Quick Guard and Tailwind on Talonflame, Wide Guard and Shadow Sneak to pick off weakened enemies on Aegislash, Weavile's Fake Out, and Gengar's access to Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and its generally annoying Mega Evolution's ability, Shadow Tag, to limit the enemy's options. Past that, however, Crobat, Smeargle, and Whimsicott all offer unique supporting sets to help their Megas and restricted Legends deal as much damage as possible.

    What we see here is that the main damage-dealers of the metagame have been set up already-- Primal Groudon, Kyogre, and Xerneas will take the stage for most of the season, as Megas Kangaskhan, Mawile, and Salamence round out the cores, while the players choose from a massive pool of unique supporting options to help them accomplish their tasks. Cresselia, Amoonguss, Thundurus, Liepard, Crobat, Smeargle, Weavile, Gengar, Talonflame, and Whimsicott all offer unique supporting sets that players can choose between; if needed, damage-dealing Pokémon like Ferrothorn and Landorus-Therian can help check Primal Kyogre, Xerneas, and Primal Groudon. Extending further down, Yveltal supports Dark-based teams with its Dark Aura, and combined with Mawile's Sucker Punch and Liepard's Foul Play + Swagger shenanigans can become both a supporting and offensive nightmare to poorly constructed teams, while Togekiss offers Tailwind and Follow Me support, Dialga offers nuclear Draco Meteors and Trick Room, Ditto does weird things like transforming into Xerneas with Geomancy boosts already up and counter-sweeping, Heatran is an absolute mystery to me (no seriously why would you use it in this metagame), as is Greninja (which at least gets cool coverage options and Mat Block?), and Cresselia offers Trick Room and Shadow Tag support.

    I personally think this is going to be an interesting metagame. Games are often short, determined by lead matchups and quick knockouts due to the Primals's massive damage. We'll have to see what happens.

    Perhaps most frustrating is the complete lack of an in-game ladder with which to practice. Showdown has some weird mechanics that don't always line up with in-game mechanics, and will be frustrating to work with the transition. Also interesting is the format in which Premier Challenges will be set up, which will lead to a lot of issues and confusion until Nintendo/Game Freak/whoever is in charge can get their shit together and fix this.

    I've already got plans for trips to Portland and Seattle again, so if anyone's planning on attending either of those, we could hang out for a while or something.
     
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