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Too many rivals?

Discussion in 'Pokémon General' started by Wizard, May 8, 2016.

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  1. Wizard

    Wizard Do you feel it? The moon's power!

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    In Pokémon X and Y, you start off the game with FOUR other trainers, Calem/Serena, Shauna, Trevor, and Tierno. In the past, Pokémon never gave more than 2 rivals per game, so this was kind of new. However, some think that 4 rivals was too many, and that the amount of rivals distracted from focusing on your main rival.

    What did you think of the XY rivals? Were they alright? Underdeveloped? Were they compelling at all? Creative in design?

    In my opinion, four rivals was two too many. Black and White successfully did two rivals, so GF might've looked at that and tried to expand, and I think that they failed pretty badly. I probably couldn't tell you any of your rivals' personalities except that Tierno was a dancing idiot (that's not really a personality trait, but oh well). As far as character design in terms of looks, however, they weren't too bad. The worst part about the four rivals is easily Shauna. She was a horrible character that I didn't like one bit and she FLIRTED WITH MY CHARACTER GROSS. Shauna was horrible, and probably my least favorite part about XY.
     
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  2. brsajo

    brsajo Idioddish

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    I'll admit it's been a while since I played through the story of X/Y, but I disagree with you about Shauna. I think of her as the 'Wally' of Kalos, but less annoyingly self-doubtful. She was the only one other than Serena/Calem who didn't have an overbearing gimmick that restrained character development. Tierno was the worst and you didn't even see him that often. Trevor was... alright and sorta reminded me of Cheren, but they didn't really do anything with him either and he just took up space. I think the game would have been better with just Serena/Calem and Shauna.
     
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  3. Pixel

    Pixel Aether Child

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    I didn't really like the fact that there were so many rivals in XY, but I did like each rival for their little quirks. Calem/Serena doesn't really count because she's just "the rival", not really adding to the story and being there more for battles at time to time, similarly to Blue's role in Kanto before he becomes Champion. I thought it was cute that Shauna had a little crush on the player, and the fact that it carries over regardless of gender was a nice touch as well. Tierno's obsession with dance his really out of character considering his, uh, immense amount of character, but I thought that was nice too. But my favourite of the bunch has to be Trevor, with his quiet nerdness. My favourite Trevor moment would have to be when he challenges you to a Pokédex Completion challenge (as he does from time-to-time) just after you beat Clemont, where he rates your seen Pokémon from the Mountain Kalos dex. At that point you've probably seen less than 10 Pokémon, and he comments that he lost regardless of number. But the best part is that, before you arrive, he compared Pokedexes with Calem/Serena and beat them, meaning if you've only seen 5 Pokémon from Mountain Kalos, Trevor's seen at most 4, meaning Calem/Serena have seen a grand total of 3 Pokémon maximum, and that always makes me chuckle a little.
     
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  4. Megarai111

    Megarai111 Elizabeth 3rd

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    I remember GF introducing so many rivals in order to symbolize friendship with a big group.
    I think they have failed to show that. If they really wanted to create a better feeling of "a group", they should've given the grou itself a bigger role and they should've included some real character development. The only rival I really liked was Hugh, because he was the only one that felt "real" to me. The rivals in XY are my least favourite because of the exact opposite reason: they're not much more than NPCs because they have so little time to shine and feel flat overall.
     
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  5. Deltheor

    Deltheor The Demon of Shikoku

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    I think overall the rivals were very poorly done; there were way too many for just one region, and very little time was spent on developing them as characters. They were just sort of... there. Shauna was definitely the most developed out of the four, and I don't mind her as much, but Serena/Calem, Tierno, and Trevor were just kind of side characters and it was a bit distracting at times. I wish they had lessened the amount of side characters and instead focused more on the characters that they had.
     
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  6. Lucy

    Lucy ☆ 𝖉𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖔𝖓 𝖘𝖑𝖆𝖞𝖊ð

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    Personally, I don't think XY had too many rivals. In fact, if executed properly, I think the number would've made XY's story a lot better. As others have pointed out, however, GF did a poor job with the rivals. Only two of them frequently battled you throughout; of those two, one (Serena/Calem) was pretty bland in terms of personality.

    So, let's start with them: I know people have compared Serena/Calem to being "Red" and your character "Green" since you're always a step ahead of them, but it seems like that also applies to their character. They're supposed to be your "main" rival, yet they don't really go through much character development. Instead, Serena/Calem feel more like "Support Character A" whose only real role is to help the protagonist out and maybe battle them a few times in the process–no personality or development necessary! Since they're the main rival, you'd expect a lot more of a challenge from them, especially once they acquire a Mega Absol. However, that battle is a complete joke, even if you didn't do anything that could make your Pokémon overpowered. (Then again, the game's lack of difficulty is an overall problem, not one limited to the rivals.)

    Moving on to Shauna, I think she's the most well-developed. As people have pointed out, she goes through the most character development of the group. If I remember correctly, you also get more interactions with her than any of the others (which might be a factor as to why she's much better developed). Unfortunately, she also feels much more like a support character than a rival–though not to the same extent as Serena/Calem–and should of had more chances to shine, in my opinion.

    Now, let's look at Trevor/Tierno. I'm grouping them together because, frankly, they don't even seem like rivals at all. It has nothing to do with the fact that they do not battle you as much as the other two nor that their goals aren't even related to Pokémon battling/training; instead, they barely have any presence and don't even make successful supporting characters. You do not see any character development from them even though there's plenty of potential.

    I do not think making them battle the protagonist more often would fix this; rather, what GF should've done was either have the protagonist face off against them in their own area of expertise (e.g., there could be dancing competitions a la Musicals style and Pokédex completion/finding certain Pokémon) or give them their own rival or role model (or both). Integrating their dreams into the story would thus force them to appear more and could potentially create opportunities for character development. I don't think they have to undergo drastic changes, but even subtle changes (for example, Tierno might take a new approach to dancing after watching someone's dance routine) could make them more developed than they are now.

    As Megarai suggested, giving the group a bigger role would definitely make having four rivals feel more proper than distracting. Giving Tierno/Trevor more opportunities to develop/more appearances overall and giving Serena/Calem an actual personality would definitely help make the group seem more important. Furthermore, having them play a larger role in the story–much like Hugh, Cheren/Bianca (OK, maybe not so much Bianca), Barry, and HGSS!Silver–would help a lot. I was very disappointed about the lack of support received from them when battling Team Flare; I hoped they would try taking them on, even if battling wasn't their field of expertise.
     
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  7. Hraesvelgr

    Hraesvelgr Snek in Your Boot

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    To be honest I didn't really like any of these so called rivals they were poorly done and way too generic. Serena/Calem was the standard I wanna beat you. Shauna was just outright annoying really and Trevor and Tierno were both equally boring really they're just there really I didn't see a point in any of them being in the games. They might as well have slapped some of them together then we might have gotten a rival or two that was less like a cardboard cutout. They're forgettable I'd forgotten all about them until I read this topic and I watched JWitt's Playthrough of Y just this morning that's how forgettable they are to me.

    Are there too many in XY? I think there is yes if they'd been done better it wouldn't have mattered but they're not. I know is because they're suppose to be a friend group sorta traveling together and all but you don't really get that feeling when you playthrough the games.
     
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  8. Pitmore

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    It had potential, but I feel like GF kinda pushed it aside for the gameplay, it would have been nice to see more, but I don't think they pulled it off.

    In general XY felt like an experiment for me which may not have pulled it off. However I'd like to see if they can capitalise on multiple rivals, maybe make something like BW. We'll see
     
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  9. LostSpirit

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    Wayyyyyyyyy too many rivals. Quantity over quality was picked for them I suppose. Yes you can be friends with a huge group, but I genuinely forgot who some of the rivals were by the end of the game. They were lacking something, an actual bond. In the past, your rivals gave you some type of feeling, but they just didn't do anything to me, besides Shauna who kept hitting on me. I just felt they were unnecessary. I could have gone by the entire game without noticing them. They felt very forced.
     
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  10. Ryan

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    Four rivals could have been done well, but it definitely wasn't in XY. I would have greatly preferred it if they just did one highly developed rival as opposed to four underdeveloped and generic rivals. Tierno, Trevor, and Shauna all felt like they were put on the backburner compared to Serena, so it makes me wonder why they even bothered with placing four in the first place.
     
  11. Nate

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    They honestly tried to push the whole journey with lots of friends with waaaaay too hard. It ended up resulting in each of the friends only being slightly developed and all I remember about them is one has short shorts, one's a nerd, one's fat and likes to dance, and one was your actual rival who didn't do much. I think they need to develop the characters more if they try this again.
     
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  12. East

    East Look to the Stars

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    As many before me have said, I feel that 4 rivals could have been done well. It just seems that quantity > quality for XY. When it came to the development of the characters, I felt that the story of the entire game could've greatly benefited from a larger group of rivals properly executed simply because the story was relatively nonexistent in my opinion. Had there been more development of the "squad" mentality, where each of the characters have clear and different quirks despite having a common ground and desire to help each other, the story would've been far more entertaining in my opinion.
     
  13. Starry Windy

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    Personally, I don't mind them introducing 4 rivals at the same time, however, I think it just needed to be developed well if Game Freak wanted to pull it off for everyone, since sometimes the characters are not having enough developments and all. But on the bright side, Shauna has become one of my fave rivals because it brought me to the joy of Pokémon once again, and having a concept of a team of 5 traveling together is very nice to show the picture of friendships, it hits very well for me.
     
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  14. MegaBlastoise15

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    I didn't particularly care four any of the rivals in X/Y (Shauna being the biggest offender). At least they give you more EXP and cash (not like X/Y are hard by any means).
     
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  15. HiddenLore

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    Like so many before me I think that the rivals biggest problem wasn't quantity, it was quality. If I had to drop any of the rivals I'd choose Tierno, since he contributes literally nothing to the story, but I think that if they had done a better job making it feel more like a team effort, it would have worked really well, I mean one child taking out an entire organization is a bit unbelievable, but five cooperative and organized children would stand a much more logical chance. I think it would have been especially interesting if they had made it feel like the four of you were traveling closer together, like the did at the beginning through the forest. That might have got annoying but its an interesting thought.
     
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  16. Doomhound

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    I guess Nintendo thought that having 4 rivals with no personality development was better than 1 with development, because, after all, you get 4 unique personalities!

    ...

    ...

    maybe if they weren't the most stereotypical people ever I wouldn't mind so much
     
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  17. ✯Ho-OhLugia✯

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    I really liked the idea of many rivals. It just makes me seem like I have so many close friends in a Pokémon world! It makes the world seem smaller in the good way, like how you are connected with many friends. The other little gimmick that I like is their battle animations, and how each of them have a unique one! This really makes me look forward to battling with them.

    Shauna really stood out to me, especially that scene in the Parfum Palace. I remember that scene a lot and clearly, because it really made me feel that despite a large number of rivals, they still have personality.

    I loved them all, really! Trevor really had an interesting personality and I really liked him. I really liked him because he was smart, and so am I! Tierno was adorable and I loved seeing his dances, while Serena reminded me of Silver through both being the main rival.

    I actually don't think of them all as rivals, actually. I only thought of Serena as battle rival and Trevor as Pokédex rival, both inspiring you to be the best you could in both sections of the game. I saw the group as mainly friends to help you interact with the world.

    But maybe cap it at four, five and more rivals would be too much. I think four is just the maximum.
     
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  18. DemonicGamerAzazel

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    So, as many people have already stated, having four rivals is not inherently bad. In fact, a diverse cast of allies could​ have made this game give you a better connection to it's characters than most other Pokémon games. However, the game squanders this potential, to the point where the rivals overall were my least favorite part of the story.

    Also, I'm going to get really specific, because I'm actually in the middle of a Y Nuzlocke so the story is fresh in my brain.

    To begin, of the four Rivals, only one is fought with regularity (the opposing player character). Now, this kinda makes sense; if all of them were fought all the time, it'd be hard to manage, but having only three fights with Tierno, and two fights each with Trevor and Shauna (if I recall correctly) wasn't the way to go. We hardly learn anything about any of these characters.

    Shauna, while disliked by some, at least had the most character development. She gets many scenes devoted to her, and all of them tell us about her personality; she's peppy and confident when facing a goal (her general personality), and even devious at times ("Why am I travelling?" "lol jk" on route 14). She's a bit ditzy in easygoing situations (the Pokéball learning scene at the start of the game), but far from stupid and when push comes to shove, can be very clever (Right before the Box Legendary fight, when she directs a large group of Flares away from you.) She's an optimist overall who largely travels for the purpose of the travel itself; she wants to see cool things and make cool memories, which is similar to many who travel while on vacation (She says this many times).

    She doesn't really grow as a character, but she's multifaceted and easily the best developed overall. She feels like a real person, and even if you don't like that person, it's still more than you can say about the other three.

    Trevor, in my opinion, gets the second-most amount of character development in the game. He fails where Shauna succeeds, however, due to an enormous lack in screen time and the fact that the game tries to grow his character before we really get to know it in the first place. Now, these go hand in hand. Because the game never gave him enough scenes to establish him, we couldn't really care when he began to grow and change. The most we get to learn about his character is that he's a shy, introverted, bookworm archetype with a strong sense of justice but incredible naiveté, and he tends to be rather passive overall.

    Now, this is a bog-standard character type, but it could have worked if subverted or at least fleshed out, but the game does neither and what we're left with is a character that, though you end up wanting to connect with, you find yourself unable to. He DOES noticeably develop into a stronger character in the Frost Cavern, though it's hard to really feel something there, and his quirks are at least interesting if a bit predictable. The game's greatest sin, however, is having Shauna basically say "WOW GAME U SO AWESUM LOOK AT TREVOAR HE GREW" on route 19's bridge. I was cringing, because it felt like the game was trying to milk Trevor's best moment in the game for all it's worth. Now, that scene would have been perfectly fine if Trevor's character before the growth was more fleshed out and the growth itself was shown in more that just one scene, but as is, the event feels like a shamless attempt to win back sympathy.

    Tierno, shockingly, comes in third. Now, his character may begin and end with "dancing", but at least we learn a few things about him. He's a practical, literal type who has a passion he pours his heart into and knows his limits. It's a muted character type, sometimes overwhelmed by his dancing obsession, but still a decent one and one you don't see very often. I feel that, if given more screen time, he could've been a breakout character, but because I had to rewatch small scenes to fully understand, when I first met him I hated him.

    For instance, after getting the Kanto starter, Serena/Calem invites you to a café to talk about something. Tierno, for what it's worth, displays some very strong "street smarts" when Trevor asks if they should follow, and Tierno says "no, it seems hush-hush." It was never outright stated to be hush-hush, but the player knew it was, and while the more naïve Trevor didn't, the more focused and practical Tierno did.

    Another interesting scene; when you encounter him towards the end of Glittering Cave, he gives you the TM Flash. He says he relies on it, because he's not good at battling. You get the sense that, as much as he feels bad he's not better, he still accepts that battling just isn't his thing. He even understands why he fails there: the Pokémon's moves keep distracting him. He HAS a character beneath his love of dancing, and that character is rather interesting, but without more screen time, he fails to impress.

    Finally, Serena (or Calem if you play as a girl). This character gets the most screen time by far, easily more that Shauna, Trevor, and Tierno COMBINED. She's the main rival of the game, as evidenced by her starter being the one with a type advantage over yours. Her character, more than any of the other rivals, is linked to the player the closest.

    and this character HAS NO FREAKING PERSONALITY WHATSOEVER. Seriously! Even "sending-feminism-back-to-the-50s" anime Serena has more character than the one from X and Y! I can say literally nothing about the rival, simply because THERE IS NOTHING TO SAY. And this is the cardinal sin of the game; Easily the least developed character, yet with so much more screen time than the others, she detracts from the development of not just your rivals, but all characters in the game as a whole.

    Makes me long for the Manga incarnation of Serena.....

    Anyway, that's my analysis.
     
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  19. TheBlazingInfernape

    TheBlazingInfernape Gone, probably forgotten

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    Honestly I do like the rivals in X/Y (except for Tierno and Trevor) however only one rival stayed consistent with battles throughout the entire game and that was Serena/Callum. It made the other three rivals seem like they weren't important to the story and player at all (they really weren't to begin with anyway). It also really bugs me that you can't rebattle any of them (except Serena/Callum) at the end of the game. I would have honestly liked that feature and if they put "rivals" in the game, then make them seem like rivals not just 1 out of the 4.
     
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  20. Cadbberry

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    I absolutely hated Trevor and Tierno, cool quirks but they were so..... just one character traits, like no story to them, just there with one thing that was bland. Trever was Wally from Gen 3, so the same kinda shy introvert trying to grow. Trever just was a cringy dancer and felt like an average trainer you would be facing, like a common kid trainer. He was really lackluster and could have been more. They both were like a strawman for Shauna. Shauna was barely tolerable and I hated all of her ditzy moments, its like they took Barry from Gen 4 but worse and tried to make them a bit more clever. With her trying to be clever it was usually like a "No way, she really just did that" moment because it was stupid and a pain, something super obvious for anyone to try. I had Calem (I played as a girl) and they werent much more then Red in the original games, didn't do anything and just kinda was there and was there to battle for free EXP. To many rivals for one game with a good plot, it needed to be thought out more about who needs to shine and maybe cut. Even in the Anime these characters are totally intolerable and sound very stupid and cliche, except for Serena, she is pretty good.
     
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