Mega Sableye being suspect tested for ORAS OU

I find it interesting that is who they deside to inspect, the most balanced underrated mega. I think the Charizards or Rayquaza should have more look into before this poor little guy. It saved this Pokémon and now to ban it would make it forgotten again.

 

Umm, I'm not too sure what you're talking about. Rayquaza is and always has been banned in OU, with its mega being the first Pokémon to be banned Ubers. Charizard's mega forms are strong, but its crippling stealth rock weakness sets it back and individually they certainly have checks and counters, though not necessarily ones for both forms which is where I suppose there may be an argument for it being too strong.

Sableye on the other hand actually has a fairly strong argument to be banned. In one Pokémon it single handedly prevents every conventional way of beating stall, like taunt, hazards, spreading status etc. Now it is practically impossible to set up rocks against stall if the player knows what they are doing. Most spikers and rockers lose to Sableye or another member of the stall team and it prevents people from running more defensive rockers and run ones that beat Sableye such as Clefable, Heatran and offensive Lum Garchomp.

Or at least that's what I gather from reading that thread AAA posted

Personally I've never really struggled to beat Sableye and generally I run Pokémon that just single-handedly beat the stall teams it is featured on, but I definitely see why there is a reason Sableye should be considered for a suspect test.

 

It can be annoying to beat once it has a good set up going, but it's not ridiculously OP to the point it should get banned. You just have to be careful when playing up against it so it doesn't set up just like any other Pokémon. On top of that it is vulnerable to physical attackers even with calm mind set up and a physical defensive build since after it mega evolves will-o-wisp loses priority (recover also loses priority as well). Critical hits can also bypass the sp.def boosts from calm mind and you can also set up your own Pokémon (like quiver dance Volcarona if your opponent starts using calm mind with Mega Sableye.)

 

What the what, they already tested it once, so they are testing it again!?!? Well then.....

I am with @[member="Reborn"], I run Pokémon meant to break stall, but I can see why they are testing it again.... *spite it not being fair*

 

The calm mind set is pretty much irrelevant in the current metagame. It just requires too many turns to become threatening, is counter intuitive to how M Sableye should be used since you want to switch it in to hazard setters to prevent hazards, while also preserving its health so it can set up and there are just generally far better calm mind users that don't take up a mega slot and/or are much stronger. As you said, crits are horrible for it and the chance of you eventually getting crit is reasonably high considering how slow the set up tends to be. But really to beat it all you need are two physical mons which outspeed it and deal over 50% to Sableye and worst case scenario you have to sacrifice your first mon to be bring it in KO range of the second to revenge kill it. You could also boost beside it as you said, but again that's basically a game of who's going to crit first which isn't a fun game.

So yeah, if it was just the calm mind set being used Sableye wouldn't even be close to being considered for a suspect test, and I don't think anybody on that forum thread has the calm mind set in mind when discussing whether it should or should not be banned.

 

I haven't gone against many mega sableye, probably because I've been playing far less OU. The ones I have fought though didn't leave me with the impression that they were something that should be banned. Sure it's annoying when it switches in to bounce hazards or status, but I just don't go for hazards off the bat if I see a sableye on the opponent's team. Also, its speed is incredibly low, so if you can hit it hard enough with something like a play rough azumaril, I don't think it'd be able to keep itself alive. It seems like it's certainly something you have to be careful in dealing with, but I don't think that it's worth banning. I also think if it did get banned it'd probably get used a fair bit less, and I think it'd be kinda sad to see sableye fade back out of use.

 

I don't get the ban reason for this guy, he is easily countered if you play right, IMO Prankster Sableye is more of a threat than this guy. Magic Bounce is annoying yes, but Prankster is even more annoying. Charizard Y should get a look at first before Sableye. Just remember, this guy was in NU for most of his life then Black and White came out with Prankster and jumped him to RU, now he was UU in XY and OU in ORAS. Sableye is way too frail to be in Ubers.

 

You haven't given a reason for anything that you've stated here. You've said Prankster is more annoying that Magic Bounce, well this thing has both. Why should Zard Y be suspected? It isn't over centralising, it requires a lot of team support and enough momentum to make sure rocks are never on your side of the field and isn't even particularly common. In usage alone Sableye sees a higher usage on teams than both Charizards according to this table from 1825+ players from Oct 4th.

Spoiler

Total battles: 3128137
Avg. weight/team: 0.004
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokémon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 37.62881% | 1070733 | 17.115% | 890607 | 19.358% |
| 2 | Latios | 23.13019% | 635503 | 10.158% | 444255 | 9.656% |
| 3 | Clefable | 22.57076% | 693522 | 11.085% | 509739 | 11.079% |
| 4 | Excadrill | 21.93024% | 708184 | 11.320% | 508274 | 11.048% |
| 5 | Manaphy | 19.21152% | 282810 | 4.520% | 210942 | 4.585% |
| 6 | Garchomp | 18.46486% | 715357 | 11.434% | 557701 | 12.122% |
| 7 | Keldeo | 16.31785% | 487166 | 7.787% | 362161 | 7.872% |
| 8 | Talonflame | 16.01908% | 725365 | 11.594% | 516713 | 11.231% |
| 9 | Rotom-Wash | 15.50385% | 776673 | 12.414% | 630018 | 13.694% |
| 10 | Heatran | 14.78791% | 712794 | 11.393% | 571986 | 12.432% |
| 11 | Tyranitar | 14.52233% | 579416 | 9.261% | 445240 | 9.678% |
| 12 | Skarmory | 12.63784% | 465347 | 7.438% | 375720 | 8.166% |
| 13 | Scizor-Mega | 12.35775% | 383743 | 6.134% | 284796 | 6.190% |
| 14 | Lopunny-Mega | 10.51194% | 427732 | 6.837% | 334074 | 7.261% |
| 15 | Dragonite | 10.38295% | 663148 | 10.600% | 447252 | 9.721% |
| 16 | Pinsir-Mega | 10.12246% | 198722 | 3.176% | 136351 | 2.964% |
| 17 | Jirachi | 10.08236% | 346209 | 5.534% | 264448 | 5.748% |
| 18 | Metagross-Mega | 9.77050% | 338114 | 5.404% | 244406 | 5.312% |
| 19 | Bisharp | 9.70779% | 568836 | 9.092% | 395716 | 8.601% |
| 20 | Weavile | 9.67884% | 574114 | 9.177% | 408800 | 8.885% |
| 21 | Ferrothorn | 9.54586% | 767474 | 12.267% | 632273 | 13.743% |
| 22 | Azelf | 9.30773% | 101860 | 1.628% | 94183 | 2.047% |
| 23 | Thundurus | 9.28256% | 259767 | 4.152% | 196122 | 4.263% |
| 24 | Zapdos | 9.24968% | 312119 | 4.989% | 238986 | 5.194% |
| 25 | Tornadus-Therian | 9.02054% | 267051 | 4.269% | 204531 | 4.446% |
| 26 | Azumarill | 8.78745% | 585052 | 9.351% | 435027 | 9.456% |
| 27 | Magnezone | 8.74650% | 309388 | 4.945% | 231501 | 5.032% |
| 28 | Chansey | 8.73651% | 403844 | 6.455% | 286860 | 6.235% |
| 29 | Sableye-Mega | 7.71031% | 266516 | 4.260% | 224164 | 4.872% |
| 30 | Gengar | 7.25688% | 801753 | 12.815% | 549958 | 11.954% |
| 31 | Amoonguss | 7.18992% | 270532 | 4.324% | 193983 | 4.216% |
| 32 | Starmie | 6.86067% | 480430 | 7.679% | 342670 | 7.448% |
| 33 | Latias | 6.24091% | 265145 | 4.238% | 183132 | 3.980% |
| 34 | Kyurem-Black | 6.23142% | 284739 | 4.551% | 202176 | 4.394% |
| 35 | Tangrowth | 5.96551% | 208571 | 3.334% | 159717 | 3.472% |
| 36 | Diancie-Mega | 5.80756% | 225772 | 3.609% | 177017 | 3.848% |
| 37 | Slowbro | 5.61446% | 262742 | 4.200% | 195288 | 4.245% |
| 38 | Heracross-Mega | 5.42424% | 220314 | 3.521% | 153573 | 3.338% |
| 39 | Dugtrio | 4.71945% | 73875 | 1.181% | 53900 | 1.172% |
| 40 | Medicham-Mega | 4.54226% | 235933 | 3.771% | 184437 | 4.009% |
| 41 | Venusaur-Mega | 4.49255% | 316134 | 5.053% | 231784 | 5.038% |
| 42 | Breloom | 4.38346% | 411824 | 6.583% | 291558 | 6.337% |
| 43 | Charizard-Mega-X | 4.28273% | 485772 | 7.765% | 350995 | 7.629% |
| 44 | Gliscor | 4.21273% | 544401 | 8.702% | 396252 | 8.613% |
| 45 | Manectric-Mega | 4.13311% | 226881 | 3.626% | 177638 | 3.861% |
| 46 | Quagsire | 3.91582% | 109433 | 1.749% | 79949 | 1.738% |
| 47 | Suicune | 3.72728% | 76064 | 1.216% | 55811 | 1.213% |
| 48 | Serperior | 3.52085% | 491725 | 7.860% | 343182 | 7.459% |
| 49 | Scolipede | 3.29736% | 158069 | 2.527% | 129352 | 2.812% |
| 50 | Gardevoir-Mega | 3.07312% | 298915 | 4.778% | 205435 | 4.465% |
| 51 | Volcanion | 3.00010% | 323891 | 5.177% | 249497 | 5.423% |
| 52 | Espeon | 2.98512% | 206454 | 3.300% | 144729 | 3.146% |
| 53 | Mew | 2.86495% | 243453 | 3.891% | 189129 | 4.111% |
| 54 | Thundurus-Therian | 2.63482% | 119393 | 1.908% | 86870 | 1.888% |
| 55 | Hydreigon | 2.56421% | 140538 | 2.246% | 100206 | 2.178% |
| 56 | Scizor | 2.53232% | 337822 | 5.400% | 247669 | 5.383% |
| 57 | Slowbro-Mega | 2.52418% | 85647 | 1.369% | 62909 | 1.367% |
| 58 | Hippowdon | 2.45005% | 192284 | 3.073% | 157196 | 3.417% |
| 59 | Crawdaunt | 2.40731% | 89405 | 1.429% | 64749 | 1.407% |
| 60 | Altaria-Mega | 2.38853% | 125639 | 2.008% | 88181 | 1.917% |
| 61 | Togekiss | 2.24951% | 254997 | 4.076% | 178475 | 3.879% |
| 62 | Seismitoad | 2.21747% | 43934 | 0.702% | 35902 | 0.780% |
| 63 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 2.02872% | 423742 | 6.773% | 318122 | 6.915% |
| 64 | Klefki | 1.90724% | 212224 | 3.392% | 173620 | 3.774% |
| 65 | Diggersby | 1.79522% | 74969 | 1.198% | 54374 | 1.182% |
| 66 | Shedinja | 1.71485% | 40089 | 0.641% | 26701 | 0.580% |
| 67 | Terrakion | 1.71172% | 82651 | 1.321% | 58649 | 1.275% |
| 68 | Raikou | 1.60153% | 198670 | 3.176% | 146699 | 3.189% |
| 69 | Gastrodon | 1.56814% | 66186 | 1.058% | 50409 | 1.096% |
| 70 | Victini | 1.52481% | 157070 | 2.511% | 118076 | 2.566% |
| 71 | Volcarona | 1.47357% | 259460 | 4.147% | 181336 | 3.941% |
| 72 | Celebi | 1.44021% | 65926 | 1.054% | 49294 | 1.071% |
| 73 | Alomomola | 1.43593% | 38412 | 0.614% | 28985 | 0.630% |
| 74 | Latias-Mega | 1.41757% | 45642 | 0.730% | 32065 | 0.697% |
| 75 | Politoed | 1.31357% | 137379 | 2.196% | 123550 | 2.685% |
| 76 | Empoleon | 1.30536% | 99572 | 1.592% | 77398 | 1.682% |
| 77 | Gyarados-Mega | 1.30084% | 174046 | 2.782% | 128820 | 2.800% |
| 78 | Sylveon | 1.28011% | 220506 | 3.525% | 151784 | 3.299% |
| 79 | Alakazam-Mega | 1.27059% | 136625 | 2.184% | 92669 | 2.014% |
| 80 | Kyurem | 1.25752% | 20840 | 0.333% | 15200 | 0.330% |
| 81 | Alakazam | 1.21893% | 200668 | 3.207% | 136303 | 2.963% |
| 82 | Mamoswine | 1.20961% | 102266 | 1.635% | 80250 | 1.744% |
| 83 | Tentacruel | 1.17841% | 163712 | 2.617% | 122093 | 2.654% |
| 84 | Chesnaught | 1.15097% | 58092 | 0.929% | 41380 | 0.899% |
| 85 | Metagross | 1.15079% | 112658 | 1.801% | 80684 | 1.754% |
| 86 | Ditto | 1.09422% | 64124 | 1.025% | 46468 | 1.010% |
| 87 | Kingdra | 1.05601% | 111603 | 1.784% | 77786 | 1.691% |
| 88 | Nidoking | 0.97607% | 119545 | 1.911% | 89558 | 1.947% |
| 89 | Slowking | 0.88797% | 37320 | 0.597% | 27565 | 0.599% |
| 90 | Swampert-Mega | 0.77341% | 127114 | 2.032% | 97400 | 2.117% |
| 91 | Tyranitar-Mega | 0.77123% | 111744 | 1.786% | 79325 | 1.724% |
| 92 | Meloetta | 0.76621% | 19507 | 0.312% | 13730 | 0.298% |
| 93 | Cloyster | 0.72271% | 192914 | 3.084% | 139115 | 3.024% |
| 94 | Garchomp-Mega | 0.71526% | 142666 | 2.280% | 98437 | 2.140% |
| 95 | Gyarados | 0.67776% | 138814 | 2.219% | 101981 | 2.217% |
| 96 | Umbreon | 0.66833% | 181135 | 2.895% | 126113 | 2.741% |
| 97 | Infernape | 0.66345% | 200532 | 3.205% | 149100 | 3.241% |
| 98 | Mandibuzz | 0.63180% | 71829 | 1.148% | 52584 | 1.143% |
| 99 | Entei | 0.61111% | 47528 | 0.760% | 35445 | 0.770% |
| 100 | Salamence | 0.61087% | 169151 | 2.704% | 112587 | 2.447% |

While usage stats are nowhere near a reliable tool for determining how unhealthy a Pokémon is for the metagame, it at least gives as a certain indication of how these higher rated players feel about the likelihood of them winning and with Zard Y being only just more frequently used than Diggersby and Klefki, I think it's safe to assume these players think there are better options available in the current meta.

Nonetheless, Zard Y needing a suspect test is irrelevant to whether Sableye needs a ban. You then say how Sableye has changed from tiers as if that is an argument. Mawile and Kangaskhan went from NU in BW to Ubers in ORAS, what is your point here?

And finally it doesn't matter how Sableye performs in Ubers (which funnily enough isn't bad, with a solid B+ in viability ranking in the Ubers tier, the same as Mega Kangaskhan and far higher than many others who were banned like Greninja, Mawile, Hoopa-U etc.). Ubers isn't a managed tier, it is essentially still a banlist with some rules in place to make the tier playable. All that is important is how it performs in the OU tier, and I think that it is a bit far-fetched to say that the fact that a Pokémon that along with its common teammates can guarantee that rocks don't get set up if played well, some thing that every viable team runs, and is immune to every conventional way of stall breaking doesn't have a reason to be suspect tested. I don't think it should be banned, but if you don't think there is an argument in favour of the ban you really need to read the thread in the OP.

Edit: An interesting thing to note is that Azelf is so high on the usage table only because of its use on a certain team that was spammed during OLT. It was chosen over another suicide lead, other than its decent speed and access to explosion, because it is able to set up rocks against Sableye after a Skill Swap, showing how important rocks are to beating the stall teams Sableye is often featured on.

 

YOU WANT AN ARGUMENT, YOU GOT ONE.

Sableye-Mega gives up speed for bulk so it is a great Calm Mind user/sweeper, however that doesn't stop a Sylveon, Mega-Lopunny, Mega Gardevoir or Azumarill from stomping the things face into the ground. You mentioned that if it has the Mega Stone it has both abilities but I don't see many Prankster Sableye that have the Mega Stone, NOT use it. The reason I brought up the tier history of Sableye was not for argument but how impressive this thing has grown into the metagame in the span of 5 years. Sableye-Mega has never been a threat to me and that's that. Whenever a Prankster Sableye cripples your damn Salamence or Garchomp, then your ass is hitting the fan. It is true that Mawile and Kangaskhan both got moved to up to Ubers, but both are able to be used in any other tier because their MEGA STONES got moved so really, they never changed spots. Sableye actually changed spots over the years. I am well aware of the team lists and yes Sableye has more usage than Charizard Y and X but the whole thing was brought up because many of my friends were bringing this up as well. But if you notice, ALL OF IT'S COUNTERS ARE USED MORE. Lopunny-Mega? Check. Azumarill? Check. Magic Guard Clefable? Mhmm. Now, if you want a better example of a suspect test in terms of mega stones, take Metagross. Has he been suspect tested before? Yes, but Aegislash and Greninja were twice and look where they are now. Mega-Metagross is deadly because it has so much potential as a Pokémon itself, all of it's stats were boosted upon Mega Evolution and it gets Tough Claws as an ability. Combine that with a now 80 base power Bullet Punch and it's massive attack stat, this thing will crush you. Mega-Beedrill will crush this thing as well and it is a tier below Sableye. I've done it before, countless times. With a base 160 X-Scissor and a Swords Dance, Mega-Sableye is gone. So there's your argument.

 

Some of what you mention is still irrelevant, but still you bring up some good points.

As I said before, Sableye is not being suspected for its role as a CM sweeper, it is being suspected for its ability to act as a dedicated hazard deterrent for stall. In terms of the viability of this set, it ranks at a B, far beneath other CM users like Clef, Keldeo, Gardevoir, Slowbro (both mega and non-mega) and on par with Reuniclus and Slowking which are both fairly uncommon (89th most used for Slowking and not in the top 100 for Reuniclus), and I would argue that this is viability is helped by the fact that most Sableye aren't CM and so the opponent is more likely to give you free turns to set up, not so much for the strength of the set itself. There are just better options for CM users and as I said before, Sableye struggles to switch in to hazard setters while also avoiding taking damage, it just has too many roles. For a team that needs a win con and Magic Bounce is just a nice bonus, there are still better CM who don't rely on as much team support, are effective even without boosts and aren't dead weight in certain matchups.

My point about it having both abilities is that you said Prankster Sableye is more of 'a threat' that Mega Sableye. Firstly if this was the case nobody would use Mega Sableye and regular Sableye would be OU, secondly if this were true in certain matchups, you would see people choosing not to mega evolve because they value Prankster over Magic bounce, a decision I'm sure has been made by top players at some point. The only difference with running Mega Sableye and regular Sableye is the moveset and the lack of an item. Mega Sableye still has access to prankster will-o-wisp if it needs to cripple a certain threat, which seems to be the only real benefit Prankster Sableye has over Mega Sableye other than Prankster Recover which isn't massivley redeeming.

Bringing up a Pokémon's tier history for the sake of bringing up its tier history while before and after stating why its not a good Pokémon, going as far as to say that its D ranked non-mega state is stronger than its A ranked mega form.

You say that Mega-Sableye has never been 'a threat', but that's not its common role on teams that utilise it to the point that were successful to the point that people called for a suspect test. If you're saying Sableye doesn't net KOs, you're right. If you're saying that Sableye can't prevent rocks from coming up from the vast majority of rocks setters in the tier, you're wrong.

If you let your win condition get hit by a will-o-wisp without having a lum berry or a cleric that's on you dude. It's not like Prankster Sableye is hard to switch in on.

I don't get what point you're trying to make here. Pokémon move from tier to tier all the time, especially when they gain a new ability, it doesn't bare any resemblance to how toxic it is to the metagame.

Now the next point would be valid if we were looking at Sableye in a Vacuum. But we're not. Sableye is placed with other Pokémon designed to be able to deal with every Pokémon in the metagame to differing levels of success. Every single check/counter gets hard walled by Shedinja, a popular partner on shedinja stall. Not to mention Azumarill and Lopunny have to rely on 90% accurate moves, even if you are dumb enough to stay in with Sableye. And not to mention Zard Y gets walled by Latios, the second most used Pokémon in the tier, as well as being fairly easily revenge killed and being hazard weak.

Your comment about the number of times being suspected doesn't matter (I'm not sure if you were implying it does, it just seems weird that you'd include it if you thought it doesn't). Things get suspected if people think they are bad for the metagame, the metagame evolves and even if it was deemed fine before doesn't mean it isn't toxic now. So if Metagross is deemed to be broken as it was when the hype surrounding it during its release, then it will be resuspected. But it isn't. It suffers massively from 4MSS and often struggles to break certain types depending on its coverage, such as Steels, Bulky Waters (risking a scald burn), Darks like Scarftar and Bisharp, and things like rocky helmet Tangrowth. It's certainly a good mon, but it's not broken by any stretch of the imagination in the current metagame. The 80 Base Power Bullet Punch you mention isn't too commonly used, often substituted for Thunder Punch and ice Punch to be the types that often wall it, favouring the increased coverage over priority. And again, completely different role to Sableye, there really isn't any comparison to be made here. They're not even run on similar teams.

And finally your Mega beedrill argument is ludicrous. Firstly SD Beedrill isn't a thing, or at least a common thing. Secondly, X-scissor is even less of a thing, considering U-turn is just as powerful and actually allows Beedrill to be played as it is intended to be played, hit and run. Third, if your setting up in the face of a Sableye you have balls of steel and should get ready to eat a burn or a foul play. And fourth.

252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 390-458 (106.2 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Omg look, Landorus beats primal Groudon. And its a tier lower than it!! Groudon for OU Lando for Ubers. I'm not saying you are advocating that beedrill be in OU, that's just a bit of hyperbole. But to be honest if anything this is more reasonable than your argument considering it doesn't involve setting up a Pokémon with paper thin defences on something that will just burn it or KO it anyway, or at least switch in to something that hard walls Beedrill, like Shedinja again, and doesn't involve the use of an obscure moveset that quite literally nobody uses at higher ranks on the ladder and in tournaments (which is who these bans are for in the first place). This argument is equivalent to saying my BD Azu beats Zapdos with rocks up if you give me a free turn to belly drum. Nobody is going to do that.

Sorry if I sound harsh in what I'm saying. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just enjoy discussing these things.