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Discussion in 'Pokémon Sword and Shield' started by Sethal, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Gazi

    Gazi Rival

    (Sail Fossil)
    Level 9
    May 27, 2018
    I'm not sure how I feel about this whole controversy thing. Because of the way that I play the games (I never trade or transfer Pokémon to different games), this whole thing doesn't affect me personally at all, and I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding why people are getting so upset about it. I'm trying to understand why people are so passionate about having a national Pokédex, but I don't really get it, because it's not something that I've personally had any interest in. I don't really have any arguments beyond that.
  2. Chron

    Chron Memegeist Guardian

    Jun 27, 2019
    I mean, there's a lot of people that don't play like you. Many people consider their Pokémon journeys to be centered around the growth and development of their original team through the years. Some people, like me, like to make new teams on each of the new games, and then combine those teams with the old teams and mix n' match them into in-game fun squads. I haven't done that in years, but the point is, everyone plays the game differently, and to many, many people I've talked to, their original mons, mons that saw them through thick and thin as a kid, mean the world to them. They'd be absolutely crushed if this game was the end of the road for them and their beloved critters. And even though my original squad(s) are chilling in the cryo-stasis of Pokebank, I can still empathize with them.

    So I get why this means a lot to people, and I get why it pisses them off. I've already stated how I felt, and while the National Dex absence isn't the biggest thing for me personally, it gave me the perfect opportunity to take a step back and pay attention to just how much I don't actually care for the recent Pokémon games. But hey, that might just be me. I don't want to prevent you from having a great time.
  3. Aiko

    Aiko Anti-Shadow Weapon

    SS Egg #2
    (Dialga Egg)
    Level 33
    Mar 7, 2016
    Lure Ball ★★★★Friend Ball ★★★★GS Ball ★★★★★Ultra Ball ★★Cooler Gary Oak ★★★★★
    I understand why people are upset about this, but personally it changes almost nothing for me. I know alot of people love sending in their old Pokémon though, so I completely understand why people would be so mad. Especially with some of the excuses gamefreak has had...like balancing. I think that they are being relatively lazy with the whole thing though. Animations so far don't look like its worth the trade of every Pokémon.
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  4. ClefairyKid

    ClefairyKid (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

    Dec 15, 2016
    Psychium Z ★★★★Poké Doll ★★Waterium Z ★★★★Ice Stone ★★★★Love Ball ★★★★★
    I'm going to get into it, but I'm already jaded about these new changes, that's for sure. Nationaldex is my JAM so... not to mention that this giant Pokémon gimmick will be forgetten in 5 seconds haha.
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  5. SyWry

    SyWry Rival

    Legendary Egg
    (Moltres Egg)
    Level 13
    Jan 16, 2017
    I do not care one bit about the National Dex controversy. The reason why is because I never transfer Pokémon over. I always make my original teams in the specific game and keep them there. My best and favorite Pokémon are still sitting in my Pokémon white game. I just don't transfer. I understand that others would be angry that this problem exists because I know they have fun with Pokémon in different ways, but it doesn't effect me in the slightest so I have a hard time picking a side. I will say though that you can't have infinity Pokémon in your games.

    One thing I will say in a broader context, is that Pokémon can't keep turning out these games forever. Everyone knows it. I look at the new Pokémon game footage for Sword and Shield and it looks pretty, but nothing else has really changed. Sword and Shield is not the Pokémon game of 2020, its the same Pokémon game from 1990, they all are. Everyone knows this, even the developers know this. Pokémon needs a re-imagining, a soft reset. The original formula was never meant to be dragged out for this long. I see the developers trying to do something with all the gimmicks in the past, but there too afraid of the overly upset fans of this National Dex debacle. Pokémon needs to re-find itself and not be afraid of the hecklers. Listen to, yes, but not be afraid. They need to throw everything in the dumpster and start from the ground up, with a formula that can stand the test of time far better. However, this is all just a wishful thinking tangent. The national dex debacle, is just a silly symptom of a far greater problem that I don't think will ever get solved. One day I'll get so bored of playing 1990 Pokémon that I'll stop buying them...one day, but for today, I still find joy in playing them.
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  6. Gwoomy

    Gwoomy french goo

    Lord Helix
    (Helix Fossil)
    Level 92
    Oct 2, 2017
    Dragon Scale ★★★Marshadium Z ★★★★★Helix Fossil ★★★Legendary Triforce ★★Animal Crossing Leaf ★
    Honestly, right now there are just so many arguments and counter-arguments out there that I just don't know which side I'm on. I'm part of the lucky side of the crowd who isn't affected by this, so in the end, I'm pretty sure I'll buy the game... In the many things that have been said, though, there are some I can agree with:
    - this probably shouldn't have been announced the way it was
    - it would be great if the next games could be delayed.
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  7. Jeydis

    Jeydis Feral Animist

    Level 37
    Aug 11, 2017
    Poké Ball ★Trainer Card - Cave Theme
    Ive debated this on discord quite a bit so ill just put a resume of my thoughts here. Up top, I am still buying the game.
    > The dex issues are very understandable to me. This is an RPG where you can have a team of 6 among 100s of Pokémon. The more they add the more likely we are to see them limit what is available per individual game. Think of it this way, no single RPG franchise has given you this big of a roster for years and been able to keep up with it. It would be like every final fantasy letting you use every character from previous games in each subsequent game.

    > The graphic issues that people have been in an uproar about have been the same limitations since day 1 and are compounded by the above 1000 models of Pokémon that can use those animations. I agree that more polish could be brought to the Pokémon models themselves but as for the moves, we will never see the level of detail from that compared to a game like Pokken where a very set number of Pokémon with a very limited amount of moves are programmed in. It's just not the same beast. For example, the infamous Blastoise cannons not firing the hydro pump: They would have to pin the animation to a different part of the model just for that. And duplicate it I guess for each cannon. They have the generic placement for attacks because they can be used by so many Pokémon with so many different body types it would be insane to custom it for each Pokémon that can learn the move.

    TLDR: I will still buy the games, I understand the limitations of this kind of RPG. I do agree the base Pokémon models could use more polish but I am really looking forward to playing in a new environment either way.
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  8. Wizard

    Wizard 2nd Cutest Star Wars Character

    (Decidueye (Cupid))
    Level 84
    Jan 18, 2016
    To clear up any confusion while reading this, I speak from my personal opinion and experience on the Pokémon series, not objectively.

    Anybody who has discussed Pokémon with me in depth will understand that I am not a fan of the overall game design of the series. There are a lot of holes, and I feel that the Pokémon themselves are the main draw, not graphics or a well-written story. I've been looking for an excuse to complete the national dex/collect every Pokémon in a game, and I was looking forward to SwSh as maybe the game to do it in. I was pretty disappointed after hearing about the national dex, and I still am to some extent. Then, I started to realize the actualities of this.

    Pokémon has never been that great of a series to me (says the admin on a Pokémon forum). It's been a casual side game that I play from time to time. I don't think it has ever been my primary series for more than a couple of weeks at a time. I know the graphics are not looking too hot compared to some of the other Switch games, but I honestly do not care too much about graphics and visuals (except Persona 5 and Spiderverse, these pieces of media look HOT). I do not consider this franchise within my top 5 favorites, and I think it would barely scrap its way into the top 10 these days. My affinity for the franchise has gotten lower and lower since I played Gen 5 for the first time. The games are not bad in my opinion, but they are not great either. The fact that Gamefreak is removing a lot of Pokémon is not surprising to me upon further thought and consideration.

    There is a good chance many of my favorite Pokémon will not make it into the game (my good girl Lapras is in thank goodness), and I think that is okay. I'm not trying to make excuses for the company, in fact I think another company should take up the series due to Gamefreak's desire to expand to other projects (topic for another time). This was bound to happen eventually, and it does make some sort of sense heading into a new console. I do recognize that the models do not look stellar and that the graphics are underwhelming, but I honestly do not care all that much anymore. Pokémon has not been special to me for a long time, and it will continue to drop in the ranks of my favorite games. I am okay with this. I have found many other series that have a larger impact on me, ones with great game design and with a lot more fun. Are you a bad person for wanting the national dex? Of course not, as long as you're civil. Are you a bad person for defending Gamefreak? Of course not, as long as you're civil.

    There are a lot of opinions on this matter, and the most important thing to me is not that the Pokémon are missing. The most important thing to me is that I see a community being torn apart in many places. This is Pokémon, folks, not a life-changing factor that will affect our society at large. It's okay to debate this and to have separate opinions, but I do not like seeing the lack of civility that many Pokémon fans outside of Lake Valor have been displaying. This has been a fanbase with many, many, many small disagreements over the years, but I have never seen anything close to this major. Each side has some extremely valid points, and I believe each has a lot of merit. Denouncing the other side and saying that you do not understand them and to "get over it" is not how problems are solved, that's how the argument carries on. The people that want the national dex back have been loud and clear about their side, and those who defend Gamefreak have been vocal as well (also the thousands of little gray arguments within this debacle exist, shoutout to my fellow neutral grounders).

    My stance on the national dex is simple: I wanted Lapras (yippee, mission accomplished) and while the national dex would be nice, it would still not repair my thoughts on the series as a whole. The arguing will likely continue to go on, but I just ask that the fanbase treats one another with respect here (you LV folks have been incredibly civil compared to other websites and I appreciate your maturity with the subject for the most part).

    Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
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  9. Ethereal

    Ethereal Snomnomnomnom

    (Lugia Egg)
    Level 10
    Feb 23, 2018
    Thunder Stone ★★★Poké Doll ★★
    I'm firmly on the anti-dexit side.
    If GF can fit 800+ models on a 3DS cartridge, they can fit them on a Switch cartridge. Dexit is just them being lazy. Simple as that.
    Honestly though dexit isn't my only problem with this trainwreck of a game. The graphics look awful, the "high quality animations" look just as bad (if not worse), dynamax looks dumb and is inferior to megas IMO, stupid soccer theme and outfits, the list goes on...
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  10. Shayminlover123

    Shayminlover123 Dragon Tamer

    Level 20
    Dec 30, 2012
    I was one of those people were very disappointed at first, but that's all I was, just disappointed. However, after seeing multiple conversations about the backlash I realized that this wasn't a deal-breaker for me. In the long run, it's still a Pokémon game and I honestly don't think something like this should break a Pokémon game.

    I played Pokémon Colosseum and this is for those who have never played that game:
    You're VERY limited on the Pokémon you can use in the game. Sure, the game does allow you to use every Pokémon before that, but that's only if you caught them in your GBA game, and if you have the cable to link up to your GC. So this doesn't bug me all that much.

    Overall I'm not going to let this one thing stop me from buying the game. I think I said this before, but this isn't the worst thing in existence. In fact, I tried my best to avoid conversations about it because every single conversation I've seen about it is really toxic and I don't like seeing the fanbase like this. In fact, it's gotten so toxic that people go on to Pokémon's official Facebook and they flood their posts about how they don't like the change constantly. Even if it has nothing to do with Sw/Sh
  11. The Eccentric Axolotl

    Legendary Egg
    (Lugia Egg)
    Level 24
    Sep 24, 2017
    Ice Stone ★★★★Great Ball ★★Poké Doll ★★Jaw Fossil ★★★Repel ★
    I know I'm a bit late on this trend -mostly because I wanted to think it all through before making rash assumptions- and now that I've seen a fair amount of arguments from both sides (good and bad) to get an idea on what I'm going to say.

    Me personally I wasn't initially bothered by the lack of a national dex (or more accurately the fact that not all the pokémon weren't returning). There's 900 plus now and sooner or later you'll begin to ask yourself how many is too many, I know I have.

    That being said, it wasn't until I found out that megas weren't returning, and instead being replaced by these dynamax forms (which to me feels too much like a gimmick that needlessly combines mega and z-moves), and that's what bothered me, because I kept asking myself: 'What are they going to use to make up for the lack of a complete roster and for the ditched battle mechanics people have grown to love?' Graphics won't make up for that. And while I admit that some of it looks really great (ignoring the t-posing wingull and that one tree everyone brings up), it isn't what a pokémon fan looks for in the games.

    Granted the game is still in development, and it's likely they'll have at least some modes to add. Though in of itself that has me asking too many questions as well. Gen 7 in my opinion was one of the most lacklustre when it came to special, non-story modes (battling or otherwise) and the ones they did have either felt like weaker versions of previous modes or just needless gimmicks that weren't all that fun.

    So to summarise, will I buy it? That depends. I already considered giving Pokémon a break once I was in the middle of Ultra Sun. And the only things that have caught my interest in Sword and Shield thus far are the new pokémon, the region (they are representing my country after all *waves miniature Union Jack flag*) and the Galarian forms. And to put it bluntly, I feel like Game Freak doesn't understand what their fans actually want. They seem to think the vast majority of us are young children that won't take difficulty and challenging battle modes (eg the Battle Frontier) as an answer, and they don't give us the modes we enjoy anymore and just throw in stuff nobody really asked for (ie poke finder).
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    #31 Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Sethal likes this.
  12. Infernostar

    Infernostar Poké Maniac

    Level 15
    May 4, 2018
    Legendary Triforce ★★
    As someone that is completely unaffected by the lack of national dex (I only do playthroughs with Pokémon introduced in the current Gen, with special exceptions), I still think it was a bad move to do this. While this may have been a necessity for time or whatever reason, the way Game Freak has attempted to cover their bases really doesn't sit well with me.
    To me, it feels like they ditched the national dex, for whatever reason, and have given little explanation for what they needed to focus on that warranted removing such a beloved feature. You literally have the single most successful franchise of all time, its clearly not a money issue, so what is it? If Game Freak was more transparent about what was happening and didn't give vague excuses I wouldn't have issue with it.
    That said I probably won't buy Sword and Shield, which feels weird to say. This is my favorite franchise, which also houses my favorite game of all time. But after sitting through two gens that were plagued with issues and oversimplification, Gen VIII feels like it doesn't want to try anything different or do any risks. It just wants to be the same thing its been for almost 6 years, and you can't do that. Franchises that stay the same for too long stagnate, and I'd rather Pokémon try and do something different than just repeat the same things with little change and less content.
    The Eccentric Axolotl and Sethal like this.
  13. Dawn

    Dawn La vie est drôle

    Cure Melody
    (Meloetta Egg)
    Level 13
    Oct 21, 2014
    Now that the full extent of this has been revealed, I feel like I can share my thoughts. I've done my fair share of complaining about this elsewhere, but I've not really sat down and collected all my thoughts before. Now seems like a good time.

    First off, this matters to me. A lot. I have Pokémon going back to my original Ruby and Sapphire files and, whilst I lost a lot when my copy of X crapped out, I still have a lot of memories contained across my games. Getting a full Pokédex is something that I have always enjoyed doing, even in the games that I haven't enjoyed, and I feel these games will be less because of it. Nothing they could do will be able to justify this for me. I'm not as upset or as angry as a lot of people who are affected by this are, but I am disgusted and more than a little concerned. I have been slowly drifting away from the Pokémon franchise since Gen IV ended and this feels like the final nail in the coffin...just as Nintendo finally make another console worth having in the Switch. I buy literally everything on Switch now. Lack of a proper Pokémon game isn't surprising, but it is disappointing.

    I realise it is almost certainly more complicated than I am aware of, but I see no valid reason for it. From the highest grossing media franchise in the world, I think expecting a certain degree of quality is not an unreasonable ask. Knowing a little of how Game Freak does things, and reading interviews, I am fairly confident that they could easily have put every Pokémon in these games if they had been of a mind to do it. I realise this is Game Freak's first console title, but that doesn't excuse it - Pokémon fundamentally has not changed since the first generation. The gameplay for these games is at its core the same. There is a lot of recycling, and nothing that has been shown justifies the cuts made. Visually the games are vastly inferior to many other titles on the Switch, and whilst I will give Game Freak credit where it is due (some of the new special attacks are very nice indeed) there is nothing here visually to justify the cuts made. Content wise, it has been made clear that there is nothing either: these are standard-issue Pokémon games, of similar length, just on the Switch. There's no good reason. Which means there are likely only bad ones.

    What bothers me the most about this are the lies and deflections that Game Freak and Masuda especially have been throwing around. There has been a very definite change in the reasons provided for this decision since it was first announced. It's been about game balance and re-doing models (and oh boy did they drop that line quickly once people started picking it apart), then it was about making sure Pokémon "fit" the region - and they dropped that one quickly too when they realised how painfully subjective it is - and then it was about making high quality animations and visuals (which they dropped when people pointed out animations were the same and highlighted the low visual quality) and now, finally, it is a "creative decision" that was taken by Game Freak and Nintendo as a whole, NOT just by Masuda as he initially claimed at the very beginning. I don't condone the threats, insults, and ridiculous accusations thrown at Masuda, but the man is a liar and he absolutely deserves to be called out and criticised for that. The behaviour exhibited by him in interviews, the inconsistency in reasons and comments that seemed designed to wind people up...well, it's no wonder people are angry. That doesn't excuse behaviour in some corners, but to pretend that there is no validity in that anger is just as bad.

    ...and there has been a lot of bad behaviour surrounding this, and that's saddening. The "it doesn't affect me so shut up about it" attitude is just as bad as making death threats, and whilst I don't really expect much better from any fandom - I've seen comparable if not worse - it's quite depressing at just how badly this decision has shaken the fandom, and how Game Freak apparently have "no regrets" about it. The lack of care on all sides is disheartening.

    The feeling that I get from SnS isn't that they can't be bothered to do it properly, but that they're more concerned with meeting a deadline and satisfying their shareholders than they are their customers...and I get that to some extent, because they're in business to make money. But it spits in the face of the fans and of the image of the company too: this is a franchise - the highest grossing media franchise in the world, in fact - that has built a reputation on quality products that have clearly had time and care put into them. They are aware of how important this is to people. Masuda himself said in 2018 that a dex cut was something they were actively working to avoid. Here we are one year later with over half the Pokémon missing and a frantic rush to try and placate angry fans with some of the worst PR rubbish I have ever seen in video gaming. No, getting so angry over a video game that you start making threats isn't acceptable, and no, game developers should absolutely not compromise their physical or mental health to "crunch" games out on time, but that doesn't mean that it isn't OK to genuinely care about something and be upset, angry, and to criticise. It doesn't mean that that criticism shouldn't be respected and properly addressed, either.

    I mean, I don't really like any Pokémon game after Gen IV, but even I can admit (and to some extent, admire) Game Freak's consistency. They've always delivered complete products, with a freedom of choice that is beyond the scope of many titles in modern times. Maybe they're far behind the times when it comes to narrative and game design, but that freedom to play how you want to play, with what you want, is one of Pokémon's defining qualities. Take that away by limiting what people can use, and what do yoou have left? Very mediocre, below-average games that feel like extremely bad remakes of 90s titles. I'm sorry, but Pokémon's narrative has been exactly the same since Generation III and that wasn't a very good story back then. The NPCs are one-dimensional and bland. These are games that would not hold up under scrutiny if compared to other titles in the genre. But they never are, because Pokémon has always stood apart for various reasons, and that Pokédex is definitely one of those reasons. YOU make your team, YOU have the adventure; what they provide is just a framework. Now player choices has been dramatically compromised, and in no way is this a good thing or a sensible design choice.

    This is a HUGE part of the franchise for many people. Game Freak have carefully cultivated this idea of transferring your Pokémon, of building an attachment to what you invest time and effort into across multiple games, for years. Whilst the "Gotta Catch 'Em All" motto is a Western thing, the same sentiment exists in Japanese media, and this idea that all Pokémon are of equal value is one of the franchise pushes quite forcefully both in the anime and the video games. Every Pokémon is a unique character, with its own traits. The dex cut completely contradicts this idea, as now we have deliberate exclusion of Pokémon that aren't as popular, or ARE popular but don't "fit" with an entirely subjective theme. The message being sent is that Pokémon not included are of less value than the ones that are - it's a value judgement which immediately divides the fandom up. We have vague promises of being able to transfer things into Pokémon Home, another paid service which we know nothing about at this stage other than that it exists, which does absolutely nothing to alleviate current concerns. If it's coming out early next year, there is no way Game Freak could not have shared some information about it. That they haven't only implies that it isn't going to serve as an acceptable substitute for a full video game.

    The entire presentation and handling of the backlash has only made it worse. We have had comparatively less pre-release information this generation compared to others, and you can bet that is because of the National Dex exclusion response. Because people are picking everything that is shown apart...and why shouldn't they, to be fair. What people want are answers, and the responses that have been given don't hold up. There is a lot of deflection and a distinct lack of honesty coming from Game Freak, and whilst it IS necessary PR talk - because they could hardly come right out and admit what is really going on with them; it'd create a very bad public image - it's still insensitive, shallow, and not what Nintendo and Game Freak are about. The lack of information only hurts Game Freak in this instance, as it implies they have something to hide...and if that final dex number is true, it definitely does not speak highly of them. Witholding review copies because of leaks only adds fuel to the fire - that's a tactic commonly used by AAA developers who don't want their products to get bad reviews before launch. What does that say about the quality of the games? There is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" aspect to this, because people will be unhappy no matter what, but the least they could do is be forthright. Say yes, this is happening, this is why it is happening, please accept our apologies. Some people might say they have already done this, but...well, they've backpedalled and deflected on the reasons for this in so many interviews that it#s pretty obvious they're seeking for any excuse to justify it to fans...which is only going to make people pick things apart more.

    Or better yet, do something about it. Follow in the footsteps of the Pokémon Masters developers, who had the courage and decency to acknowledge that their product was of a lower quality than it is reasonable to expect, and clearly detailed what they were going to do about it. This from a spinoff iOS title that will probably never make as much money as Pokémon Go. I was very impressed by the attitude they took towards this, even if the game itself didn't appeal to me. Here were developers who were clearly passionate about their product and attentive to consumer feedback. I have seen nothing like this from Game Freak.

    Although I DO think it has been considered behind the scenes, and indirectly implied in interviews - Masuda's comments that they would need to see the response to SnS before creating the next Pokémon games, and that these games do not come yearly (despite the fact that they have in recent years) implies to me at least that we might be waiting longer for the next games, but when they arrive they will have every Pokémon in them. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but despite the "no regrets" comment I am seeing a lot of regret. Just no directly addressing it or heartfelt apologies/justification for the decision. Silence seems to be the way to go for them.

    It's all assumption, of course. But with the lack of proper information, speculation is all we have, and whilst people shouldn't necessarily assume that speculation is fact, the implications for the company are bad. They might not owe us information, but it is certainly within their best interests to be as transparent as possible, especially in the wake of backlash like this...but the problem is that fundamentally it doesn't matter, because the games will sell regardless. They don't have to care, so they don't. That is the message here. It's not a nice one.

    And really, I think it safe to say that the only reason SnS are coming out now is because there isn't anything else to fill the void for Christmas. Metroid Prime 4, Animal Crossing: New Horizons? Those can be delayed. Those NEED to be delayed to ensure the best possible quality, because they don't have the kind of clout that Pokémon has. Pokémon can afford to put out a game that is of a lesser quality than it should be, because it's going to sell millions, be critically acclaimed, and have a vocal majority support amongst the fandom regardless of the pre-release negativity and backlash. Pokémon, like Mario and The Legend of Zelda, is immune to criticism. No matter what it does. Nintendo knows it, Game Freak knows it, and with the National Dex cut they are absolutely pushing it. It's cynical, corporate garbage that I would expect from Blizzard, or Activision, or EA. Not from a series like Pokémon. THAT is what annoys me the most. Although I feel like with these games, that may change - this could be the Pokémon equivalent of Final Fantasy XIII....and whilst Square Enix didn't do a great job with XV, it was so unlike XIII as to be night and day.

    So yeah, I'm disgusted by this. But more by Game Freak's behaviour, and the behaviour that it has prompted in some fans, than I am in the dex cut itself. If they had address this issue properly, and with the openness and honesty that Nintendo has shown with the likes of Metroid Prime 4 and Animal Crossing: New Horizons, this would not have blown up the way it has. If they had treated their customers like people, and properly explained the reasons for this in a clear and concise manner, and maybe even apologised to upset fans, I would be willing to bet that the backlash would be smaller and easier to dismiss. As it is, we've had endless meaningless PR talk, numerous excuses that do not hold up under scrutiny and are clearly half-truths at best and lies at worst, and a complete lack of care. It's not what we expect, and certainly not what we deserve.
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