Is Smogon over-centralizing the meta-game?

Can you actually explain how smogon has actually over centralised the metagame? Over-centralisation essentially means one or two Pokémon dominate the meta-game, and all teams must be built around those key Pokémon. Obviously the OU tier is centralised in having key Pokémon you must take into consideration when team building, but I don't see how not banning certain Pokémon would make this any less true. Without the bans, we would likely see a very similar situation to what we see in the VGC15 format, 2 Pokémon which are simply better than the other available options in almost every scenario, fit on to almost every team and have a huge opportunity cost of not using. Having those 2 Pokémon in the format limits the viability of pretty much every other option, leading to only 40 Pokémon (being very generous) actually being viable in the format, since their viability depends on their match up against these Pokémon. I really don't think you see that in OU. You see loads of different team archetypes in OU, while in VGC, at least in more competitive situations like worlds, you for the most part only see 3 teams, being CHALK, a veriation on CHALK with M-Gardevoir and Japan Sand.

You've touched on many different things, so I'll just give my opinions on those different subjects. For the first and seemingly main topic of your post, why Pokémon are banned. Yes, sometimes Pokémon are banned because they do not have a counter, Lucario for example. The Lucario carry stone edge argument is a sound argument, since for a Pokémon to be a counter it must be able to switch in manually and win 1v1 everytime. This whole argument also doesn't take in to consideration stealth rocks, which will make Close combat an easy 2HKO, and prior damage (you only need to get 30% prior damage on volcarona with max HP and max def positive nature for close combat to 2HKO). I think with that being said, I think it's a bit ridiculous to say that Volcarona counters mega lucario.

Anyway, I went off on a bit of a tangent there. A Pokémon without counters isn't necessarily unhealthy for the metagame, take Kyurem-B for example. With the correct coverage moves, nothing counters it. But nobody considers it unhealthy for the metagame, because while it is great at what it does (wall break), it can easily be beaten. Pokémon like Deoxys-D weren't considered unhealthy because they are powerhouses, but because it is difficult to prevent it from performing its role (set up hazards). Deoxys-S and Speed Boost Blaziken were considered unhealthy because they could fill out multiple roles in one Pokémon (Hazard Setter, Revenge Killer and Wallbreaker for the former, and Sweeper and speed passer for the latter). These being considered, the opportunity cost of not using that Pokémon was very high, since running one of these Pokémon could free slots for you to bring counters to other team archetypes. Essentially what I'm trying to get at is that whether a Pokémon is unhealthy for the metagame or not is largely subjective, which is why they have these discussions and suspect tests.

A Pokémon having a counter doesn't make it any less of an unhealthy presence in the metagame. Do you not think that a Pokémon being so broken that you need to run otherwise completely nonviable counters to that Pokémon is healthy for the metagame? It limits team building, and in some cases such as Greninja, makes certain team archetypes unplayable. Yes, Chansey can switch in and beat it 1v1, but it deterred innovation in high level competitive play and invalidated and shifted the metagame to a much more stall oriented meta, since it wreaked havoc on offensive balance.

I'm not being specific to particular bans, since they all have their arguments from either side, but for the most part I think the metagame is far more diverse than it would be otherwise.

As for Stempe Fridays on Ogloza's channel, I don't think that has any relevance to any of your arguments. I mean they are often playing against inexperienced players, and yeah anybody can beat a Kangaskhan with Blastoisinite Milotic if they keep clicking Fake Out (An actual set of theirs, even though a fake scenario). The OU ban decisions aren't made for people who ladder, it's made for people playing in high levels of competitive battling, which is the reason there is ladder rank you need to reach to qualify for suspect testing. And if you want to see stuff like that for OU, search Heatah Fajita they got to the 1800s using awful teams like Nasty Plot Weavile (though I'd recommend headphones when listening to it )

As for what Game Freak wanted, I honestly don't think they have the competitive scene in mind when they make decisions like adding Mega Rayquaza and probably the new form of Zygarde (though who knows, it could be the next Regigigas). They also ban Pokémon like Mew which are completely fine, or even Pokémon like Mesprit which are underwhelming, simply because they aren't available to a lot of players.

And for Evasion and Swagger, they don't take skill, no matter how hard Verlisify wants to go on about how it has counters and how putting it on a bulky Pokémon makes it balanced for whatever reason, it's a coin flip whether you get hit or not, which is often the difference between surviving or not. It just means that the luckiest player wins rather than the most skilled, which is neither competitive nor fun.

And as far as Verlisify goes on the topic of bans and what not, he spouts some of the most ridiculous and misinformed things I have ever heard. Why he thinks that Greninja shouldn't have been banned because kids like him and consider him a mascot for Pokémon, or that battle spot statistics have any relevance to a smogon ban is beyond me. Regardless of what drama he's been in with other youtubers, I just don't watch his videos because he can't make a logical argument for any of his beliefs about a healthy metagame and back it up with evidence, and whenever someone makes a solid case against his opinion he just doesn't respond, pretty childish if you ask me.

And for your final sentence, I would say smogon never claimed to enforce these rules in regular play. They are unofficial, everybody who actually cares about competitive battle knows that. People choose to play under ruleset, just as people would choose to play under the VGC ruleset. They are completely different formats and anybody who claims Kangaskhan is banned in VGC is misinformed, just as anybody who brings Arceus to an OU battle is misinformed.

Since you linked some videos, I'll just link you to a channel who goes in to more detail on the individual bans of each Pokémon and the ideas of centralisation and a healthy metagame.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJCh1MPuXQyN_o1W0K09KmQ/videos

 

If you really want to dig in, there are no counters to any Pokémon. I'm pretty sure that many people would agree that Talonflame counters Scizor, right? The closest set there is that can counter Scizor are the bulkier sets that run will-o-wisp, and even then, they won't guarantee that Talonflame will beat Scizor in 1 v 1. This is due to fact that Scizor can have Counter along with Focus Sash, which will kill all Talonflames that use Flare Blitz, and in some cases, even if they use Brave Bird. Also, Talonflame can't really switch in on Scizor, since it can always carry Knock Off, and with Choice Band it has 12,5% to OHKO 252/252+ Talonflame when Stealth Rocks are on the field. Adamant Scizor's Life Orb HP Rock also manages to do the same, but it has 81.3% chance to OHKO instead of 12,5% in the same situation.

It's kinda same situation with Volcarona countering Mega Lucario. Volcarona is ABLE to counter some sets, but it CAN'T counter all of them.

While I agree with somethings that both of you have said, however, both OU and VGC, are centralized, with VGC being more centralized than OU. I believe it's mostly due to how tiers work. You can pick all of the strongest options available with no problem. This is the reason why I prefer metagames that are like Saishidou, since they don't allow you to pick the 6 strongest Pokémon, which makes the metagame more diverse, as long as it's done correctly.

 

Side note, I will be getting Saishidou to make a return to LV. Discussion for a later date though.

I strongly agree with this. Not to bash other people's opinions, but most Youtubers just don't add up with their opinions and skill level.

Now, @[member="Sachi-Shimazu"], I'm going to answer your question bluntly and say Smogon does in fact over-centralize the metagame, if you're only referring to OU. OU is the most centralized metagame in Smogon, with progressively less centrality in every tier below it, like a spectrum. However, I don't understand what everyone's beef with that is--Smogon's entire tiering system is based off of centralizing and de-centralizing Pokémon. No matter what, there is always going to be a Pokémon or few Pokémon that are used more than others; that's due to people being people, not necessarily the effect of the metagame's structure.

 

I want to debate that in some cases this isn't the case at all. I believe you are aware that every ban is done through voting of those who are high up in the ladder.

It's ok if your rank doesn't matter, the bans are still done by opinion, but i understand your reasoning on why your opinion might not be valid. I want to add, when Gamefreak bans something, it usually is due to that banned something being broken. Sky drop, Dark Void, and Soul dew are some examples when it comes to VGC.

The real counterargument last I remembered was that Volcarona was not a counter, but a check. Again that's what I was hearing.

Obviously I don't want to bring in too much about Verlisify when it comes to posting on anything Pokémon related, but I don't believe Verlisify is a sure fire credible source for many reasons. Yes he may have some merit and proper opinions, but sometimes he looks at things at an ignorant view point. I like the other video source you used though, so that really helps. I'm not a singles player or a smogon player though, so my opinions could be taken as uninformed, but I honestly believe the tier list is in the right direction. Of course people will be upset and counter argue that Pokémon should not be banned, especially if they get no say on the vote or matter. Look at smogon as a presidential election in some cases, one person will win, the other won't, and people will still say the winner shouldn't be the president. There is no right or wrong opinion when it comes to a Pokemons ban or unbanning. Again thanks for posting your thoughts, it was an informative read.