1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Lake Valor!
    Catch, train, and evolve Pokémon while you explore our community. Make friends, and grow your collection.

    Login or Sign Up

NSA Spying

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Oim, Jun 20, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Oim

    Oim Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Posts:
    2,426
    PokéPoints:
    ₽60.0
    I'm kinda surprised there wasn't a thread on this. How do you feel about it? I'm especially interested in how Americans feel. I'm not even American and this doesn't necessarily effect me, but it kind of outraged me (although didn't really shock me),and made me wonder about my own government which has extremely close ties to the US. How do you feel about a government secretly monitoring the interactions of its citizens in the name of "fighting terrorism"? Do you believe what they say, how people being aware they are monitored affects the national defense? This program sure didn't stop the Boston Bombers, or Adam Lanza, or James Holmes. It's almost as if they are looking for any dissent for a regime, that's the feeling I get. Scary kinds of trends that in the past in other places have precluded civil war and massacre by a government on it's own people..though not to jump the gun and say that is what's happening, it just seems to be following that kind of trend, and it's worrying how complacent some people apparently are about it. And about the man who leaked this clandestine spying program which is in place, do you feel he should be criminalized? Share your thoughts should you have any.
     
  2. ID Zeta

    ID Zeta Resident Physicist

    Arceus
    (Arceus)
    Level 1
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Posts:
    775
    PokéPoints:
    ₽3,133.1
    I believe that this is basically illegal and should be unconstitutional. Spying on your own people, even in the name of "national security", is a violation of personal rights and privacy. If the NSA is supposed to stop potential terrorists, why haven't they? It seems more like a lousy excuse than a legitimate reason...

    Since this is somewhat relevant, I want to bring up another point: technology's rapid advancement. Sure, many of us think of this as a good thing, but there's an unforeseen downside to it as well. I'm pretty sure many people have heard of the President's idea of launching drone strikes on suspected terrorists, am I right? If not, let me fill you in. The President is basically saying that if someone is suspected of being a terrorist and is planning an attack, an unmanned drone can be sent to eliminate the target before any damage is done. Seems bulletproof, right? Here's the catch, though: What happens if they're wrong? They've just killed an innocent civilian, and the people's trust in the government falls even further. What's my point in all this? Technology is advancing so fast, but legislation hasn't. There need to be laws set in place to limit the power of technology.

    Ignore that rant if you aren't interested, I just felt like venting.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. Oim

    Oim Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Posts:
    2,426
    PokéPoints:
    ₽60.0
    Yeah, you raise a very good point, there already are many drones flying over America right now. On top of that it's already well established that potential terrorist suspects can be held indefinitely without due process, and in many cases have been tortured thanks to the PATRIOT act, so a drone strike on suspected terrorists without any due process isn't that much of a precedent for them. And the definition of terrorist is so vague and fluid that they can at any time declare someone a potential terrorist, for things as simple as protesting or showing dissent online. In fact arrests have been made for anti-American speech on Facebook deemed to be "terrorist threats". Since 9/11 they can use the term terrorist to suit whatever end they need it to and have public support and approval from a wide, wide number of people. Not everyone, but a lot. It has terrible police state implications, it's exactly the trends of a totalitarian state. It's some scary shit. And for technology, they can already track anybody in North America if they wanted to from space, even down to getting rough recordings of speech from inside a room of say a cabin, by bouncing lasers off of window glass and recording the subtle vibrations. If there is ever a Civil War 2 in the US, the citizens stand no chance (take into account that Homeland Security just recently purchased billions of rounds of hollow-point ammunition, for some reason..). Of course they will try to disarm people en masse if they feel that threat is imminent (sounds familiar from recent newscasts last few months doesn't it? Disarm for the sake of your own safety), and it's scary to think that nearly every totalitarian massacre in modern history involved the disarming of the people before hand to "protect security". It's playing a game where the government considers their definition of security more important than liberty.

    Well, a rant of my own, but I do get heated about this thing even if I'm not American; I'm close enough that it would still affect me, and it's outrageous and scary just from a general human liberty standpoint. People sometimes mock folks who talk much about this as conspiracy theorists, and doesn't that just ring a bell with the labelling of "terrorist" to suit their needs and discredit folks?
     
  4. ID Zeta

    ID Zeta Resident Physicist

    Arceus
    (Arceus)
    Level 1
    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Posts:
    775
    PokéPoints:
    ₽3,133.1
    Frankly, I went pretty off-subject with that rant... On subject, what the NSA's doing is illegal and unconstitutional. Plain and simple. I honestly have bad feelings about the future... Something is coming. What it is, I don't know, but I don't like it.
     
  5. Oim

    Oim Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Posts:
    2,426
    PokéPoints:
    ₽60.0
    It's all good, going a little off subject. Natural progression of discussion, it's certainly related to this NSA tomfoolery. The spying is like a cog in a wheel.
     
  6. Cobalt

    Cobalt I'M A HURRICANE

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,729
    PokéPoints:
    ₽64.6
    Sigh...I realize what the US government is trying to do, but it clearly isn't working. It's just sparking protests and making everyone just a little bit uncomfortable. They're looking through average citizen's phone records! I realize it might end up catching someone, but it's a low possibility. In this day and age in America, people don't meet face-to-face all the time. The consequence, other than not getting outside, is that whatever you say can and will be recorded and studied by the government. Fantastic.

    In conclusion, I don't think it's working, and it's making the people uncomfortable.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. Shadow Blaze

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,291
    PokéPoints:
    ₽55.0
    It just makes it clear to me that the American government doesn't trust their people. Well, if they don't trust their people, how can they expect their people to trust them? How does monitoring everything people do on the internet stop terrorism. It's right there, not only in the first post of this thread, but in the news as well. It still goes on whether the government stalks citizens or not. Yes, "stalking" is, in fact, the correct word.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. extremewhiteboy

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Posts:
    33
    PokéPoints:
    ₽20.0
    Obama said (and no matter what your political belief is he DID say this) that it's important to sacrifice freedom for more security.

    Really pay attention to that. That's not good. Security from what? lmao If anything we need protection from our own government. Did you guys know they passed obama care without even reading it first?

    If anyones curious I'm not a democrat or a republican. I think they're all full of shit lol
     
  9. Shadow Blaze

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,291
    PokéPoints:
    ₽55.0
    I agree. Anyone who runs for president, if you were to ask me, is just someone who wants the power to say, "Fire a bomb!" That doesn't mean they would, but I do think that people who run for president just like having control over the country's nuclear weapons. Basically, I can't say that I find voting worth it, I might change my mind in four years when I actually will be able to vote, but... I mean... Nowadays they're both idiots and we're screwed no matter who wins. My dad told me that when he votes he literally decides based on who he's less afraid to have in control of the nuclear warheads.
     
  10. Cobalt

    Cobalt I'M A HURRICANE

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,729
    PokéPoints:
    ₽64.6
    I can't find anything saying that Obama said that...where did you read/hear it? In reply to that, though, I'll leave this here.

    "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin.

    But I do agree, the governement is getting extremely untrustworthy...that's actually an understatement.

    Either way, I've heard way too much about Obamacare. I fucking hate it. It's just shit wrapped in shit and served with a side salad of shit.
     
  11. Shadow Blaze

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,291
    PokéPoints:
    ₽55.0
    I pretty much agree with everything in this post. I couldn't find anything on the internet that confirmed Obama having said that either, but he must believe it to be so otherwise he wouldn't have continued the spying.
     
  12. Oim

    Oim Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Posts:
    2,426
    PokéPoints:
    ₽60.0
    Taking freedom for security is what breeds civil wars and police states. Or at least is one indicator. It's all a very scary trend as far as I'm concerned. Even if Obama may not have outright said it, liberty has been sacrificed in the name of security in the US since 9/11, it's been an on-going thing and I for one don't trust the motives not to be ulterior at heart.
     
  13. Cobalt

    Cobalt I'M A HURRICANE

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,729
    PokéPoints:
    ₽64.6
    I agree with everything. It pisses me off how overprotective the United States gets over the dumbest things. They're like that one guy that everyone knows that can't take a joke. They take everything seriously. You want to make a sarcastic comment online that may or may not relate to a tragedy that happened? Nope, fuck you. We'll take away your freedom of speech and try you as a terrorist. (Don't know if you guys heard about that...)

    But, I honestly wish that they'd chill with everything that has to do with security. They're taking it way too far, and their anti-terrorist or anti-criminal organizations and technology never stop what matters. They never stopped Adam Lanza or James Holmes.
     
  14. Shadow Blaze

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,291
    PokéPoints:
    ₽55.0
    Pretty much. It doesn't seem to stop anything. It seems like at this point they're just doing it to see if they can get away with it.
     
  15. Cobalt

    Cobalt I'M A HURRICANE

    Joined:
    May 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,729
    PokéPoints:
    ₽64.6
    Yeah. For reasons of experimentation. See how far we go before we SNAP.
     
  16. Madaraki

    Madaraki Poké Maniac

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    325
    PokéPoints:
    ₽36.0
    The whole thing's been going on for YEARS now as it is. The only real shift of late was that the government's had to publicly admit it.

    What made me roll my eyes were the number of congresspeople on both sides of the aisle who screamed about how it was unconstitutional/horrible/an abuse of power.

    Gee, if you really feel that horrible about it, howabout you all focus your collective outrage and repeal the acts/laws that put these policies in place?

    (Hell, the only person in congress I know of who's been consistently against anything tied back to the Patriot Act and its extensions/renewals time and time again is Sanders...)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. Garudarocks

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Posts:
    1,406
    PokéPoints:
    ₽55.0
    To be honest, if you think about it, Google and FaceBook spy on you, too. This is only big because its the government, and people love to talk about the government. And, another point is, it wouldn't be this way if some a**holes in the Middle East hadn't bombed people, flown planes into identical towers, gassed their own people, etc. I'm not saying I'm supporting the government doing this, but you can't blame it ALL on them.
    (This next part is off-topic, but about Zeta saying the drone strikes are bad, here's how I view it. Kill a terrorist and save a lot of people, or keep back from firing because you are 25% away from 100% and have a lot of people killed.)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  18. Oim

    Oim Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Posts:
    2,426
    PokéPoints:
    ₽60.0
    Yeah, Google and Facebook do as well. Facebook with more direct consequences on people, Google does it for advertising purposes mainly. That's why I haven't used Facebook since 2010. But as far as the "can't blame it all on them cause of terrorists" I disagree, the whole "constant terrorist threat" thing they try to drive home is exaggerated and overblown and designed to suit their needs and desires.

    The drone thing I don't agree at all either. Again, the whole "terrorist threat" thing is largely propaganda. They're going to be using drones against their own people, and they have this vague definition of "terrorist" that they can apply to whoever they want, and the public will clap and cheer for it because they've been convinced that terrorists hate them for their 'freedom' or some similar nonsense. They'll get people behind them cause their propaganda works.


    I'm glad I'm not American but sometimes am not happy I'm so close either.
     
  19. Madaraki

    Madaraki Poké Maniac

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    325
    PokéPoints:
    ₽36.0
    [quote name='Garudarocks' timestamp='1374446364' post='31705']And, another point is, it wouldn't be this way if some a**holes in the Middle East hadn't bombed people, flown planes into identical towers, gassed their own people, etc. I'm not saying I'm supporting the government doing this, but you can't blame it ALL on them.
    [/quote]

    I could post a blame-chain back from stuff they've done to stuff we did to them first to stuff they did to us in response for something we did before that and so on, going all the way back to the Age of Imperialism. Your bit about us using drones on them because they attacked us (while not quite being how it's all gone down) is barely the tip of an iceberg.
     
  20. Aero

    Aero Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Posts:
    228
    PokéPoints:
    ₽25.0
    The spying never surprised me. I mean, come on it happens all the time in movies, it's practically what the entire Bourne movies and books are about. They even used the NSA in the movie to find him. It also never surprised me because that's just how the American government works. It doesn't trust anybody and nobody trusts it. The colonies declared independence BECAUSE they didn't trust or like Britain.

    And actually, Garuda, they didn't start this fight. We and the UK did. This particular fight has been going on since World War II ended.

    And back to OP, no I don't think Snowden should be criminalized. And PRISM should be illegal.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page