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Rate My First VGC 2016 Team, while also helping me revise.

Discussion in 'Festival Plaza' started by sohrob101, Dec 27, 2015.

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  1. sohrob101

    sohrob101 Destiny Draw!

    Oct 7, 2014
    I decided to make a RMT after awhile of not posting on the site. So my team is for VGC 2016, and i require assistance in some ideas and maybe improvements. Again I should mention I am a stubborn person, so I may or may not agree with your opinions, but still want criticism and thoughts none the less.

    So the team simply starts of with the Primal of the group.

    So seeing what the popular and more powerful choice was, I chose Primal Groudon.

    Primal Groudon really was picked due to obvious popularity and power overall, so I thought that it can pretty much be a start somewhere.

    Groudon @ Red Orb
    Ability: Drought
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 10 Spe
    - Precipice Blades
    - Overheat
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect

    This is a pretty standard set, mind you that the reason the IV's are a bit low is so that I can have my weather come last in terms of setting up sun. Again nothing I can add here other than this is a really standard bulk set for Primal Groudon.

    Next we have the next Legendary, Giratina.

    Giratina was chosen due to my liking, not only that but I wanted a Levitate user that wasn't Cresellia or Gengar.

    Seta Sinou (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    Level: 50
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Shadow Force
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Dragon Tail
    - Protect

    The nickname for this Mon is pretty random so I can't really explain that. The set runs Shadow force, as it's honestly a really strong ghost move, that can do mostly 70% of damage to a Xerneas alone. It also breaks protects which prevents my opponent from playing around it. Will-o-Wisp is mainly for not only physical attackers, but a way to stall out Kangaskhan if a 1v1 of these 2 were to occur. Originally Dragon Tail was roar, but after some chatting with a friend, we decided Dragon Tail was not only a nice dragon move to have handy against other dragons, but having that force switch tactic can be really handy. Giratina's role is for the most part support but as well as pressure when the opportunity is given.

    So we get into our first Combo maker of the team, good old Venusaur

    Venusaur was added for it's use of chlorophyll. If you remember, the obvious original combo was Charizard-Y and Venusaur, well this time around its Groudon+Venusaur instead.

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Level: 50
    EVs: 248 SpA / 12 SpD / 248 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Giga Drain
    - Sleep Powder
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    The Venusaur is not meant to play out as a support mon, but in some cases more of an offensive approach while under the sun. During testing, I have been really fortunate with the use of Sleep Powder. Yes there have been times I have missed Sleep Powder, but thats a risk I might be willing to take when using it. Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain are pretty standard, and HP Fire is there for any Ferrothorns that may be running around. Now as for the spread, I feel it's nothing special that I can explain, other than it's a preset. Overall it's been pretty solid though as there have been times I have outsped a Groudon even when they are under Tailwind.

    Next we have Scizor, or also known as Mega Scizor on my team.

    Scizor was Chosen for the sake of having a bulky Steel type, that had a fast and powerful way to hit Xerneas when necessary. I wanted the Mega version just for that sake of bulk, as well as the fact I didn't have a Mega on the team at this point in building.

    Scizor @ Scizorite
    Ability: Technician
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Protect

    Scizor isn't a main focus on the team, and so I decided not to opt for Swords Dance. I instead added Knock off for the sake of knocking off items, and helping against ghost types like Gengar and Aegislash. Bullet Punch and Bug Bite are pretty much standard. The Spread is also again nothing special, as it's meant for just bulk and power. Scizor overall has been useful in testing, and Bullet Punch has been clutch in many situations.

    Next is the real support Pokémon on the team, Thundurus.
    Thundurus was just a simple addition cause the team needed an electric type, and it lacked support, so what better Pokémon to add than Thundurus.

    Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
    Ability: Prankster
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Taunt
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    *NOTE*: the spread above is what was used during testing, I forgot to actually put my real set of Thundurus that I will be using. The real set I am using is listed below this note.

    Real EVs: 236 HP / 104 Def / 60 SpA / 108 Spe

    Thundurus is pretty much straight out of 2015, it has your standard taunt, thunderbolt, hidden power Ice, and thunder wave. The speed control with the mix of speed and some power was a really nice fit to the team. The spread was created by a friend of mine, so in terms of what the spread can do, I believe it helps thundurus survive or last a bit longer than usual.

    Finally we get to the Pokémon that I may consider replacing for the finalization of the team. I bring you Swampert.

    When I was debating on what water type to put on the team, I really wanted to put Gastrodon, but my friend debated that Swampert was better. I forgot his main reasoning on why it was better, but I honestly feel Gastro would be just as effective.

    Swampert @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Torrent
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Modest Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Scald
    - Earth Power
    - Icy Wind

    Swampert was kind of like a glasscannon, it was meant there to be an offensive water type. Ice Beam for a strong ice attack, while we have icy wind for a nice spread move that also helped with speed control when needed. Scald is there for some free burns if possible, and earth power is, for the most part, for Primal Groudons. During Testing Swampert wasn't as helpful as I wanted it to be. I want a bulky water type yes, but I also want my water type to give a bit of OOMPH if you know what i mean, I felt Swampert wasn't doing the damage I really wanted and for the most part it didn't survive enough. An origin pulse still does too much to it, and Groudon still has no trouble dealing with Swampert.

    So this is my team, please help me revise it, and maybe help me with ideas on how to replace Swampert. Also I ask if you please backup any drastic or big suggestions with some reasoning to better convince me in some cases.
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  2. Reborn

    Reborn Signature Creator

    Aug 7, 2014
    Ooh this is a really cool looking team that I wouldn't mind testing out if that would be okay with you. I'll just preface this with the fact that I have very little experience in the new format, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt and know that nothing that I may suggest has been tested in the new format.

    First off, I suspect the Thundurus set is invested to always guarantee the 2HKO on uninvested Kyogre with Tbolt, having enough speed to outspeed 252+ base 92s (I'm not sure if there are any relevant threats with base 92 speed, but it simultaneously outspeeds the plethora of base 90s like the primals and other restricted legends), while maximising its physical bulk and having a HP stat that automatically pops the sitrus berry after a super fang from Crobat. That's just what I presume, it may do some other things as well.

    Just from the get go it looks like opposing faster Primal Groudon can be a bit of an issue. Other than Giratina, which I'm aware completely walls it, it hits 4 of your members for super effective damage and Giratina could likely be checked by an opposing Xerneas or faster Dragon type. It's also invunerable to your only form of speed control, which could pose problematic.

    Now on to some questions about the sets/Pokémon choices:
    How does LO Venusaur hold up in this metagame? It just seems like it may lack the offenses needed to compete against these restricted legends and puts even more pressure on you to win the weather war. It fairs pretty well against Xerneas (having a 50% chance to OHKO if its univested), but so does Scizor and Groudon, and the damage against Kyogre is rather disappointing, getting a 2HKO while being OHKOd in return from ice beam after LO damage.
    I have no idea whether its viable or not, all I know is that I haven't seen any Venusaurs and I suspect its due to it not securing important KOs and being too frail.

    Is there a reason you chose Mega Scizor over Mega Mawile? It seems like having Bug STAB doesn't really do much for your team, while Fairy STAB would help against mons like Mega Mence. Mawile has a better ability, is more powerful, also has priority and could deter your opponent from setting up TR. It also actually secures the OHKO against Xerneas with Iron Head (or Play Rough for that matter) as opposed to only dealing around 65-75% with BP. Play rough is also a much more spammable move against the metagame, dealing neutral damage to the majority of the metagame. I know that you value outspeeding Xerneas with BP, but I'm not sure that's enough to justify using an otherwise sub-par Pokémon.

    You say that swampert is pretty frail with AV, have you considered an expert belt set? It gets a much higher chance of OHKOing an univested Groudon (228+ SpA Expert Belt Swampert Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 161-194 (92 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO) and opens up the option for wide guard, making the scary spread moves from xerneas and the primals more manageable.

    Again, these are just things that seemed like could be changed, feel free to completely ignore everything I've said. Also is there any particular reason you have 10 speed IVs as opposed to 0 on groudon? To my knowledge it doesn't help you outspeed anything and it just means 0 IV kyogres beat you in the weather war.
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    sohrob101 likes this.
  3. Pitmore

    Pitmore Mild Internal Pain

    Nov 6, 2014
    Honestly, I'm looking forward to Venu in the sun, I reckon it could really work.

    In other news, Expert Belt Swampy could really help your team with wide guard over Icy Wind, this is a very anti-meta set that can take care of a lot of thepokemon in VGC 16 and is a great support.

    Whilst Venuasur is good, it isn't too good without a boost, not ubers standard anyways. So try a growth Venu over HP fire to hit harder and break through those annoying walls like Giratina.

    Apart from that, everything that reborn said!
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  4. Pixel

    Pixel Aether Child

    Level 16
    Nov 16, 2014
    Ice Stone ★★★★Lucarionite ★★★★Dawn Stone ★★★★Decidium Z ★★★★★Galladite ★★★★
    I'm here to say one thing; your friend knows nothing. I totally agree with you on your idea of Gastrodon over Swampert. Even though Swampert has higher stats, does that really matter? I mean, without it's Mega it's not all that great, and it's only got Torrent and Damp to muck around with. But Gastrodon has Storm Drain and Sticky Hold, two abilities great for VGC! You know that Groudon won't last forever, and you're bound to come to come up against a Kyogre at some point, so troll the heck out of that beefy dolphin by taking its Origin Pulse, Water Spout or Surf attack and raising your Special Attack while you're at it. Or give it Sticky Hold, Leftovers and Recover, and it'll last for days! Either way, here's a recommend moveset from a long-time Gastrodon fan.

    Gastrodom @ Leftovers
    Ability: Storm Drain/Sticky Hold
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Earth Power/Recover
    - Protect

    So, this is a pretty basic set if you're in the know for Gastrodon. I've included both abilities, so in the case of moves, the first move if there's more than one option corresponds with the first ability, same with the second.

    Starting off with the Storm Drain set, send it out against an opponent with a Water-type move. Take it in and increade your Special Attack, then use Scald and Earth Power as your STAB, and Ice Beam for peskt Grass-types and the Unova Genies.

    With the Sticky Hold set, Earth Power is swapped for Recover, and gives Gastrodon lasting power. Use Scald for STAB and burns, Ice Beam for type coverage and Recover to heal, while Leftovers never goes away thanks to Sticky Hold. An alternate option would be a Rindo Berry, but it's one-time use makes it better off on the Storm Drain set, unless you're reallt scared of losing it.

    Anyway, that's my two cents worth on your team, which I have to say is pretty good as it stands! But Gastrodon is the better option in my opinion, so that's how I rate your team. 7.8/10 Needs more Gastrodon
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  5. Reborn

    Reborn Signature Creator

    Aug 7, 2014
    In theory defensive Pokémon sound great in doubles, in practice you will often find them to be a liability. By having a set totally defensive set like this the opportunity cost in damage output is remarkable, and will often lead you to being overwhelmed by the opponents heavy hitters which this metagame has a plethora of. It also leaves its partner open to double targetting, as without its partners damage output Gastrodon can be dealt with easily. It's also important for Gastrodon to score the important KOs that its on the team to beat. In this case, it seems to be on there to beat Groudon but it just doesnt do that well against it (I changed the spread to 252 HP 252 Def since that maximises overall bulk and that amount of Sp def isn't necessary to survive any notable attacks).

    0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 104-126 (59.4 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 99-117 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    That amount of damage from a spread move is a problem, considering your opponent has the option to either double up on the Gastrodon for the KO or to KO Gastro's partner, bringing them closer to a last mon Gastrodon which is a situation you do not want to be in. They also have the choice to portect Groudon and get the damage necessary to KO Gastro the next turn with Precipice Blades. This matchup is essentially the best matchup this set would get. Against annoying bulky Pokémon like Cresselia, Gastro can't touch them and simply gives them free turns to support their team. Against Kyogre, yes it's immune to both Origin Pulse and Thunder but it still does nothing to it with Earth Power even at +1 and even if it is uninvested, which a lot of them aren't. Against Xerneas it is simply set up fodder.

    +1 0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 48-57 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    A draw to using Swampert is that it has a good chance to OHKO Groudon if it has an E belt, as well as being a fairly decent way of shutting down the 3 most common Pokémon with Wide Guard (though it is also setup fodder for Xerneas and doesn't appreciate a +2 Moonblast).

    252+ SpA Expert Belt Swampert Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 168-202 (96 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    Essentially what I'm getting at is Gastrodon is just far too passive for a metagame filled with ubers. If you're going to use a passive Pokémon, it needs to be able to support your team, which Gastrodon doesn't.

    I'm not sure about Growth on Venusaur tbh. It just seems too frail and I'm not a fan of giving the opponent a turn to reposition in to a more favourable position, such as switching in to a Kyogre (or using skill swap/role play on it to remove the sun) or just getting enough damage on it to be able to KO it the next turn with a priority move.

    As for the team overall, I would also say that the fairly common lead of Kangaskhan Smeargle can be annoying to it. You do have Thundurus for anti-bs patrol, but this still requires some predictions. For example, your opponent has the choice of Faking out Thundy with Kang and Dark Voiding (more likely if they are scarf smeargle), or Faking out with Smeargle and going for the KO on Thundy with Kang (More likely if the smeargle is sashed). They could also protect/spiky shield the smeargle and double edge the Thundurus. I don't know how you would deal with this, but it's just something to keep in mind.
    Pitmore likes this.
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