Religious Conviction of Marriage

Personally, I am religious. I'm a strong Christian. I understand that usually people who say this also seem to have some sort of fanatical response to being asked questions about homosexual marriage being legalized.

Until recently, I didn't really even give this much thought because it seemed so obvious. Why should people who don't live by the same faith as me be limited by something they don't believe in? To me, this isn't even something that should be an issue. It seems like one of those "duh" answers. Should Human A be able to marry Human B regardless of their gender? Of course. It's not even relevant to my personal life and does no harm to me at all, so I'm in no position to take issue with it.

More recently, I have recently starting caring a lot. When I go to church and hear people talking about "the gays that are going to ruin everything" and I talk to other Christians convinced that "homosexuals are going to ruin our way of life" I get angry. I get furious to a degree unlike any other fury. Why? Because of this:

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22: 36-40 (NIV)

The two greatest commands of my faith are about love. The command to love our neighbors is being compared to the love we should feel for God. I cannot stress the enormity of that. Literally everything else hangs on these two commands to love. For some reason, the people I am downright ashamed to admit I share faith with have decided that they should completely ignore the second half of what is potentially the most important command given to us by the holiest being who could possibly have given the order.

I try to avoid the people who share my faith, now. My faith should never be used to steal basic rights from others. Any claim people of my faith say they have to discriminate because of their religious views is based on fear and lies. There is absolutely no excuse or right for their hatred-fueled bigotry, as the only thing people of my faith can truly claim a right to is the love of God that they were commanded to share.

I could go on forever about this, but I'm going to stop here because I'm actually getting angry thinking about this again. I made a blog post a while ago on a similar topic involving religion if you want to see more of me typing angrily.

I'm going to go watch kittens playing for an hour or something to calm down.

 

Madness pretty much nails my opinion on the matter. That moment of realizing that people's standards are different and how I shouldn't expect everyone to stand by and live according to my standards hit me a few years ago as well. I would like to add 2 points of interest. First, were somebody to share my religion openly while also claiming gay marriage to be in line with my standards, I might have issue with that, due to a conflict of interest. I'd certainly want to hear their reasoning for it, and where there argument is based, and perhaps debate that because that is misrepresentative of my views, and what I believe to be our shared views. Secondly, as something that may have been alluded to earlier in regards to homosexuality as a sin. Yes I believe it to be a sin, but I firmly believe it is not unforgivable. I have never seen somebody go to hell for being gay, and I again firmly believe that gay people can and do go to heaven. Just like other sins, it is not justified, but it is also forgivable.

Don't expect any further posting from me on the subject; I simply want you to understand where I'm coming from on the issue.

 

I'm completely against same gender marriage, especially due to my faith. I'm a Lebanese Orthodox Christian, meaning that same gender marriage is against my belief. Now, before you say anything, I definitely do NOT pick out anyone who agrees with it, or people who are in fact same gender attracted. Even though I oppose, I have no right to pick on people or neglect their right to an opinion.

In the Christian faith, the purpose of marriage is to bear children and share the love of God as a family, since the family is very strong. The natural way of children being brought into the world involves one man and one woman. I won't go into details, but I'm sure everyone here knows how a baby is produced. Children are either adopted or scientifically and artificially conceived from a same gender family. If that family had two men as parents, wouldn't that child question why everyone else has a mother and why they have two parents? Won't they question their origins? And I'm sure once that child finds out, they will more likely feel different, alienated, and neglected from a natural birth or raising. If the pair don't decide to have children, then what was the point of getting married?

There is also a stereotype going around that Christians hate same gender attracted people. That is not true by any standards. Just because we oppose the belief, it doesn't mean that we neglect or hate those who do. I'm pretty sure I could be best friends with a person who is same gender attracted, and I am Christian.

 

I strongly agree with Ho-OhLugia, due to my Christian faith, I believe that gay marriage and homosexuality are wrong, and should not be allowed. I do not, however, fear or hate LGBT people. As a Christian, I am called to love all because Jesus gave his life for all. In other words, hate the sin, love the sinner.

 

That's making a massive assumption. You assume that when they learn they were adopted, they will have a negative reaction of some kind. However, every adopted person I have met has shown the exact opposite reaction. Every person I know who was adopted shows great pride in their family bond, with most valuing the relationship with their family members more than people who were born into a family. I've heard many jokingly say, "Other parents are stuck with what they get, my parents chose me specifically!" but there's some truth in there. The idea that the only happy, healthy families are traditional families is completely false.

Also, you severely underestimate the ability of a child to understand the world around them. Young children are more intelligent than we often give them credit for. When they receive the explanation of their origin, it's not going to send them into some sort of crisis. They'll understand it and move on. If anything, the thought of them being special and unique in some way may actually boost their confidence.

Did you ever consider that maybe they got married because they love each other and want to dedicate their lives to each other? Maybe they said to each other "You are my family" and wanted that to be recognized officially? Y'know, for the same reason everyone else gets married. Genuine love for each other and all that stuff.

And while we are at it, deprive the sinner of the right to choose who to spend their lives with, right?

For the sake of continuing the debate, would you elaborate on why you think same sex marriage should not be allowed, outside of the reason that you believe it is wrong?

 

@[member="Cobalt"], no, I'm not saying it's a negative thing to adopt. Adoption is a beautiful thing! I'm just saying that if two people that have the same gender are married and adopt the child, the child may be confused as to why they have two mothers or two fathers, and why other children have one of each. I'm just saying that it may affect their health in some ways, and I didn't say that they are always going to question their origins. Sorry for the confusion I caused...

@[member="8542Madness"], I guess I forgot to mention that people do love each other and that's why they get married. I always thought that, yes, while you'd love someone to the end, you would end up having children either way, and starting a family is the reason for marriage. But if, and not everyone does, you don't agree, and say that marriage is the... joining? Devotion? of two people who love each other forever, then why should I pick them out and hate on them? I was just stating my thoughts, that's all. Sorry If I did cause confusion for you too...

 

But you did say that. "I'm sure that once that child finds out" and all that.

Where to start... I won't say too much (though wow I could), but I do need to make one very serious point.

That's a horrible thought. Having children does not make a family. If so, then why do we have such a high divorce rate among Christian families with children? Why do people who cannot have children still get married and live happily with just each other and no children? Approaching the idea of spending life with another person for the primary reason of having a kid is just sad. That's not how fulfilling and healthy lifelong relationships get formed.

 

I hate how people just label you a bigot the moment you say you're against something that they believe most of society is for. Scientific arguments against gay marriage can be found on this website: http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=if04g01. Plus, there's no such thing as being 'born gay' which is an argument commonly used by LGBT supporters who say that people can't help it. People can, and will adjust themselves into different mindsets with assistance (it is now illegal to counsel under 18s in the U.S who are gay or lesbian and to give them help to become straight, even if they want help to become straight), so this is a ridiculous 'reason' for gay marriage to be legalised. The legalisation of gay marriage also presents problems for the religious communities, as if say, they run a function room or something of the sort which holds marriage ceremonies, are they expected to have to break their moral code according to their religions if a gay or lesbian couple want to get married there? If they refuse and are sued or imprisoned (as has happened in a few instances in the U.S since the legalisation of gay marriage), this is a breach of their rights (in most western countries) to practise their religion freely. Another weakness to point out in the pro LGBT marriage argument is that supporters often use the term 'marriage equality'. This is a deceptive statement made entirely to make gay marriage seem like a right. In reality, LGBT people ARE equal with everyone else since they have just as much right to marry, that is, someone of the opposite gender like was intended by God (and even if you believe in evolution!!!). Overall I am strongly opposed to gay marriage, which is based on empirical evidence, and my faith. I will not just go with the flow when it comes to serious topics like this, as this can prove to be a very dangerous thing indeed. Oh, one more thing, if you allow gay marriage, what happens when other minority groups come forward and say things like: "I want to be able to marry my sister," or, "Can I marry my horse?" (yes, there are people out there who would do things like that were they allowed). This has already been shown in the case of paedophiles wanting to be allowed to marry children, these minorities are what will usher in a whole new level of immorality and unnatural behaviour, as occurred in Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

@[member="Mewtwo"]

Passions are a great thing. It's good to care about issues. I can tell this is an issue you care strongly about. In fact, you care so strongly that you advertise your beliefs on your About Me section of your profile. That's not a bad thing. Having a belief about something is fantastic. I personally believe a lot of things that you probably would agree with, and it's a shame we don't see eye to eye on this.

However, passions connected to social issues in debates have a tendency to get stronger and flare up, exploding at the wrong times and coming out in the wrong ways. Our words are twisted outside of our control by our feelings until they no longer represent who we really are and what we believe. Frustrations become all we are to the recipients of our burning words.

Please take this information into consideration when you are representing something greater than yourself.

 

Right, before I go any further, I'd like to make one thing very clear:

Insults will not be tolerated in this thread

This applies to both sides. If I see people devolving from debate into insults, I or another staff member will lock this thread to prevent further devolution, and you could be subject to warning points.

With that said, my opinion on this debate so far:

Let me start with the fact that churches can still refuse to host gay marriages if they are not receiving government funding (at least in America and I think in Australia based on church and state separation clauses I will bring up later). They are private institutions, and can do what they want within themselves as long as it isn't harming others. Cases I've seen of judicial fusses over gay marriage and religion have been based on marriage licenses, which are government issued and therefore cannot be denied on religious grounds. If there is a case that you know of where Australia's judicial system has said that a private religious institution must marry a gay couple, please source it because I would like to study that.

As for your argument about marriage equality, it is unsound. Of course gay people can marry somebody of their opposite gender too. That's not the issue. The issue is their right to marry who they love. Gay marriage as a right comes down, if you want to really really simplify it, to legal rights such as life insurance and retirements. If a gay couple cannot get married, they cannot have the rights of a married couple in that they won't receive any family benefits in insurance or retirement plans or the like. Therefore, the argument of marriage equality is actually sound, in that gay people want to have the legal rights and safety with their loved ones that straight partners already have.

The statements about where to draw the lines on marriage is very simple to me. Here's the thing: being gay is not illegal. Being a pedo is. Committing bestiality is. Committing incest is. There's your line.

Finally, a big overarching thing that defeats anything you, I, or anyone else with a Christian affiliation could say against gay marriage on a religious ground is this: it is totally irrelevant to government. The United States government is specifically set apart from religious affiliation, and most other developed countries follow similar paths in the modern era. Australia, like the US, has a specific section of its Constitution separating church and state (ch 5 section 116). Therefore, though this debate concerns personal beliefs, when you move to making statements about how governments should act, any religiously based opinions do not hold water.

I respect that you care strongly about this issue, as many on both sides do. I find it interesting as well that though we share a faith, we both have interpreted the commandments of that faith to come strongly into support of direct opposite sides of an argument. I might make a thread about that in the future, as it is a fascinating subject that two opinions so opposite can spring from the same source.

Though to close this post, I'd like to end with something I stand by and that has done much to shape my opinion on this issue as well as many others: somebody else being gay doesn't harm me. It does nothing for me, good or bad. So in all honestly, why would I care who marries who? With that in mind when I consider this debate, it comes down to if I am going to try and hold back legal benefits from a group that does not negatively impact me in any way. And I can't in good conscience do so.

 

Dropping to voice my support for gay marriage because it's important. I live in the country that was first to legalize gay marriage in 2001 and lemme tell you, I've never once felt like my freedom as a person has been threatened by someone who loved someone of the same gender in all my years of living here. I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that I think all the 'arguments' against gay marriage mentioned previously are at best unjustified or narrow minded and at worst astoundingly mindless and I'm being very mild here because I'm actually quite pissed off by some of the posts on here.

GAY IS OKAY​

 

I'm not going to get involved with the arguments here, I'm just here to state my opinion on the topic.

To start off, I'm just going to say that it should be the decision of the church if they should host LGBT+ marriage or not. There are a ton of LGBT+ friendly churches, which is awesome, but if a specific church doesn't want to marry gay couples, then that's their choice. However, I do firmly believe that marriage should be equal as long as both parties are consenting non-incestual adults- they should be able to get a marriage liscence regardless. After all, many people get married for non-religious reasons.

As a bi (leaning towards gay) trans man, it would be hypocritical of me if I didn't support gay marriage. I may in fact end up marrying another man someday, and I would like to enjoy the same marriage rights that everyone else has. The bottom line is that someone somewhere is going to have a problem with my eventual marriage no matter the gender of the person I'm marrying due to my gender identity, so I just don't worry about other peoples' views on that. Everyone is allowed to have their own views and opinions, as long as they aren't being a dick about it. Forcing your own views onto other people is never a good thing (although there is a difference between forcing your views and asking someone else to respect your views).

So, am I in support of gay marriage? Absolutely. It's not harming anyone, and comparing it to bestiality or incest or pedophilia is honestly insulting. The problem with the aforementioned things is that one or more of the parties are unable to consent (or both parties are related, in the case of incest) and/or is underage. As long as both people in a relationship are not related, are of age, and are consenting to the relationship; I don't see the problem with it.

Anyone is free to disagree, as that is your right. But if anyone results to throwing around slurs or insults in this thread, I will not hesitate to give you a warning. We don't tolerate that here on LV.

 

I wear my beliefs on my sleeve, they are a large part of what defines my life. If I am not to show that life, how am I living? Just to clarify, Deltheor, I was not putting gay marriage in the same group as bestiality, incest etc, I was merely saying that now one minority is given right to marry, what is to stop others, say, 30 years from now starting a new movement akin to what has happened with gay marriage? Society is getting more messed up everyday (due to the human nature to sin and be selfish), and I really don't like it. Terrorism has increased, diseases are spreading, and wars are brewing. The tension is almost palpable. Due to this downward trend and moral degradation that takes place over time in society, I believe that in future, a minority whose views are currently seen as vile, immoral, or just plain wrong by today's standard, could potentially be seen as acceptable in future. I apologise if you feel insulted, Cobalt, but I am merely upholding my rights to voice my opinion, I will continue to pray for your good health. If I have kids in the future, I don't want them living in such a messed up world, I can barely tolerate today's moral standards, porn is everywhere, lots of teens have pre-marital sex, and the current anti-religious activists are becoming more prominent. Christianity is not a restriction of freedom, it is a moral code.

 

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