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Valor Battle Feedback/Ideas & Questions

Discussion in 'Valor Archive' started by Achromatic, Mar 16, 2017.

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  1. Achromatic

    Achromatic #TeamMagikarp

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    Valor Battle Questions & Answers
    Do you have any ideas or have feedback to share with us for Valor Battle? This is the place to share your feedback, let us know what you are thinking about this new game and ways to improve it.

    Please be respectful as you post to other users as well. Also, please be serious in your feedback and ideas as we are trying to improve Valor Battle.

    Also, If you're confused about anything, please use this topic to get answers. Ideally, read the Information & Guidelines topic first though!
     
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    #1 Mar 16, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  2. Rafael

    Rafael Math Geek

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    Cooler Gary Oak ★★★★★Star Piece ★★★★Dragon Fang ★★★★Deep Sea Scale ★★★Deep Sea Tooth ★★★
    According to the Move List thread, "Dual typed Pokémon may use moves from both of their types!"

    Does this mean dual typed Pokémon get 2x more PP than single typed Pokémon?
     
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  3. Achromatic

    Achromatic #TeamMagikarp

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    This is true as they have a wider pool of moves to choose from, yes.
     
  4. MCOury1998

    MCOury1998 Negaishipper

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    On the battle request form, what does 'availability' mean? And, what kind of things would I put for 'additional notes'? Thanks!
     
  5. MCOury1998

    MCOury1998 Negaishipper

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    Is there a rule on how soon or long an opponent can wait to join the battle/use an attack? Because, I'm starting to get a little worried about the battle I started...my opponent has yet to show up.
     
  6. Skittle

    Skittle daijoubu

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    Gonna answer these questions separated.

    "Availability" would simply mean when you're online to post and continue the battle. Additional notes would be other thing you'd like a challenger to know, whether it be "you make the thread" to "thanks in advance."


    I would say there is no time limit to a battle. You're battling a human across the screen and humans are busy creatures!
     
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  7. MCOury1998

    MCOury1998 Negaishipper

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    Okay, thanks. Makes sense. :)
     
  8. POKE

    POKE Ace Trainer

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    Does STAB count in VB?
     
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  9. Skittle

    Skittle daijoubu

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    STAB does not apply in VB. A move's attack value is how it's written, only affected by type matchups.
     
  10. CharlieWeasleyfan

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    With the Valor Battles is there a set time limit? Like the number of days?
     
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  11. Skittle

    Skittle daijoubu

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    I addressed this in an earlier post above, but I'll answer it here as well. There is no set time limit that I know of, the only way a battle ends is when the battle has been completely finished.
     
  12. ClefairyKid

    ClefairyKid (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

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    I kinda want to try out a battle but do I need more than two Pokémon for this to be a realistic fight? :P
     
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  13. Achromatic

    Achromatic #TeamMagikarp

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    Not if you want to do a 1V1 battle! I'm gonna move this to the Q&A topic btw.
     
  14. ClefairyKid

    ClefairyKid (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

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    Just to be clear, if we use an item, we don't actually lose it as a treasure on our account do we? It's just one time in that battle only?
     
  15. Vigilance

    Vigilance once here, now gone

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    Yep you still keep the treasure :)
     
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  16. ClefairyKid

    ClefairyKid (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

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    yay! Realizing how great this is that i've actually horded so many good ones :'D
     
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  17. Cadbberry

    Cadbberry Dad: 76.... Or Cad: 76

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    Valor Battle Feedback/Ideas
    Do you have any ideas or have feedback to share with us for Valor Battle? This is the place to share your feedback, let us know what you are thinking about this new game and ways to improve it.

    Please be respectful as you post to other users as well. Also, please be serious in your feedback and ideas as we are trying to improve Valor Battle.
     
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  18. Seprix

    Seprix Patron Sint

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    Introduction

    I want to preface this article with a couple of things. Firstly, I want to thank Achromatic and the Battle Judges for even making this game mode possible. Secondly, the criticisms I will levy towards the Lake Valor Battle rules are not condemnation of the game itself, but aspects of the game that I think can be improved, either by my proposed solutions or other methods. Lastly, I welcome any and all comments. I'd like to hear other solutions or thoughts, or perhaps even defenses of the current system as it is!

    Overview

    Lake Valor Battle (abbreviated to LVB) is a clever idea of a game that uses collectibles (Pokémon and Items) you can obtain from the LV Shop. However, LVB is still in "beta" mode. Many aspects of the game are still clunky and subject to change. It may be that a year from now, everything changes and the points in this article may be entirely negated. At any rate, due to the current status of LVB, it is entirely expected that the game will have some rough patches. The purpose of this article is to point out these rough patches and to put forward some solutions.

    The Battle System Described

    For recap: The object of LVB is to drain the HP of the opposing Pokémon, causing them to faint. Whoever has all of their Pokémon faint loses. There are three game sets within LVB: 1v1, 3v3, and 6v6 battles. With the 1v1 battles, items are not permitted, but they are permitted with both 3v3 and 6v6 battle modes. As per normal Pokémon rules, attacks may be carried out. There are three types of attacks: 1 PP attacks (6 damage), 3 PP attacks (4 damage), and 5 PP attacks (2 damage). PP stands for Power Point, and it measures how many times a Pokémon can use a move. For example, a 1 PP move is only allowed to be used once, while a 3 PP move can be used three times. Complicating the move situation is that the attack effectiveness is based on what Type the Pokémon is, but anybody who has played Pokémon will be quite familiar with type effectiveness. I probably do not need to describe how type effectiveness works.

    Play starts with a Valor Battle Judge, who flips a coin to determine who goes first. The first player announces his Pokémon to enter the field, and the second player announces afterward. After this, the first player goes. He may attack, switch (in 3v3 and 6v6), or use an item (in 3v3 or 6v6). Thus, in 1v1 only attacking may be done. After the first player chooses his option, he tallies how much PP he has left for a move if he used it, and calculates the damage based on the move itself, its type, and the opponent's type. That damage is applied to the total Pokémon's HP, which is also kept track of by the player. When the first player finishes his action, the second player starts, and action taking continues to alternate until the game is over.

    Problems with 1v1 Battling System

    Depending on who you ask, either the 1v1 system or the 3v3 and 6v6 systems are the more problematic part of LVB. I personally prefer brevity and get more enjoyment out of the 1v1 system due to the relative speediness of matches, but others find the staleness of strategy and lack of items in 1v1 to be too much to bear, and thus prefer the 3v3 and 6v6 systems. Whatever the better method of battling is, I will tackle problems in both LVB systems. Many of the problems are similar, but a couple are unique to each system. First I will cover the 1v1 system, as it is the most simple.

    The first problem in the 1v1 system is the staleness of strategy. With only one Pokémon per side, it is relatively easy to figure out which side wins right off the bat. This quickly leads to a loss of enjoyment and going through the motions. The only perks on continuing the battle from that point are increasing your post count on the forums, and the actual illegality of simply giving up a battle within the rules.

    The second problem is the brokenness of the second player. When the first player sends out his Pokémon blindly, he basically ends up giving it a death sentence, as the second player can choose a Pokémon that counters with relative ease. In fact, first player advantage only kicks in when the first player has a Pokémon that the second player does not have a counter to. Thus, first player advantage kicks in, with the first player's moving first gives an edge in an otherwise equal contest.

    The last problem is the length of battles. While shorter than 3v3 and 6v6 battles, 1v1 battle lengths may be worse still because there is no suspense. There is no strategy. There is no real choice. You know right off the bat if you win or lose. Thus, the length of the battles quickly gets stale, further separating from enjoyment. It becomes more of a lengthy chore to post turn after turn when the winner is already decided.

    Problems with 3v3 and 6v6 Battling Systems

    Many of the problems with 3v3 and 6v6 are the same as the 1v1 system, but there are a few subtle differences. While there is a trade off in more time with battles, there is also an increase in strategy due to the abilities of switching and item use. While still incredibly simplistic, this increased variation may in fact save the extra length from becoming too cumbersome. The apparent brokenness of the second player is mitigated with this increase of strategy. While the second player does have an advantage in the very start, the first player can switch straight away and nullify the high power move of the second player. There is a metagame.

    However, length of battle is still a big problem, and is the direct reason why nobody has even attempted to try a 6v6 battle yet.

    Miscellaneous Problems

    Firstly, there is a potential exploit with the Lake Valor Adoptables system when battling, which even further assists the second player. The first player may select a Pokémon, knowing that the second player does not have a counter Pokémon, and thus the first player wins from the offset. However, the second player may switch his team from the settings before selecting his Pokémon. In this way, he can select a counter Pokémon he did not previously have. This is sadly a problem that cannot be fixed without completely overhauling the LV Adoptables system, and people who do not play LVB would no doubt be disappointed. In addition, such cheating would be easily spotted and could thus be punished, or at the very least the match could be restarted.

    Sadly, another annoying problem is the PP system. Since it is emulating the Pokémon system, it's sole purpose appears to be simply for flavor, rather than any strategic means. While it is true that having moves of differing strength is more useful in 3v3 and 6v6, it is also true that playing moves over and over lengthens a seemingly short game. In addition, the move names and having to remember those is incredibly annoying, to the point where a player either has to have another tab open to access those moves, or simply give up and name moves Grass 6 and Water 4 out of convenience. This move system cannot really be revamped, but it did play a role in my new system idea for LVB.

    Lastly, monotype Pokémon are effectively neutered from even being in the meta. They only get one set of moves based on their single type, while the dual type Pokémon get two 1 PP moves, just by virtue of having two types. This is a massive advantage, and it prevents Pokémon like Pikachu and any of the first evolutions of the starter Pokémon from ever being competitively viable in LVB. This is a massive issue that can be simply addressed by giving monotypes double the PP for each move they currently possess.

    Recap of Battling Problems

    To quickly recap, LVB takes a very long time, it is highly biased in favor of the second player, and the strategies are either simple or nonexistent. These are very serious problems, and LVB is going to have to address these issues if it wants to continue to grow.

    Proposed Solution: A Game Variant

    I have come up with a solution that is so dramatically different from the traditional LBV system that is may as well be called a variant of play. There are no PP moves, and play is much faster, with there being 5 turns tops (in a 3v3 setting) per match. Sadly, there is no current implementation for items with my proposed solution, but this is only the beginning of the idea. In addition, there may also be some things to iron out, but I feel my solution allows for more complex play and meta.

    To start off, the battle system is entirely different, being entirely based on your Pokémon's type and your opponent's type. Each turn, you and your opponent submit a Pokémon from their team secretly to a Lake Valor Judge. Neither side knows who sent out what until the start of the turn. Thus, the second player cannot determine what Pokémon to send out purely on knowledge of what the first player sent out, but rather an educated guess.



    Secondly, the battle happens all at once. No moves would be necessary. It would be like a complex Rock/Paper/Scissors match. If the second player is super-effective against the first player, then the second player wins that round, and the first player's Pokémon faints. If there is a tie, then first player wins the tiebreaker. (First player alternates every round for fairness) This method also makes mono types much more competitive than before, when the halving of move usage would kill half of the viable Pokémon, just because they did not have a second type.


    The game would end when one player lost 3 Pokémon, who would then lose the match.

    A Potential Problem and a Potential Solution

    A big problem with this method is the way of submitting your Pokémon team in secret to the Battle Judge conveniently. He may be juggling multiple matches at once, and his PM box may be filled rather quickly. Therefore, I have come up with a solution that is much faster: Discord. Since Discord is being introduced to send Pokémon secretly to judges, it stands to reason that there might as well be a dedicated Pokémon battle room in the Lake Valor Discord anyways, for speed and convenience. Matches could be over in 5 minutes instead of 5 days. This presents unique problems, such as setting the team in the first place, while also threatening the entire point of the adoptables system, since the game was meant to be hosted on the forum. However, I do think it is something to at least ponder.

    Conclusion

    While there are many problems with the current system of LVB, there are also many ways to improve the metagame. These were my perceived problems and a presented solution to most of these problems. There are other solutions. There are other ways. My suggestions are not the end all suggestions. Feedback is goodback. Do you have any ideas yourself? Any counter arguments? Is the system not broken after all? Leave your thoughts. I will read and reply to them.
     
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  19. ClefairyKid

    ClefairyKid (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

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    My issue is that the battles are 1. extremely predictable (to the point that a lot of 1v1 battles could be predicted down to the exact ending hp just by looking at the line up people have in their sigs before starting) and 2. that the favoring of adopts over items means that the same dominant players will always have a huge advantage, thus discouraging new or more casual players, or players who prefer collecting items over Pokémon.

    I know my view will likely be dismissed as laziness/not enough dedication/bias for items over Pokémon, but I really think it would only make the whole thing a lot more interesting for everyone involved if items could be used to make the battles less obvious from the outset, and also therefore more affordable for those who haven't been here as long. I'm not saying hand it over to newbies entirely but to afford a full team of 6 to even start more complicated matches is a high cost for someone whose been here less than 6 months say. And the more accessable 1v1 are just way too predictable, I personally sign up for them knowing I have about 0 chance of winning if the other person has a type advantage, a legend and/or a dual type Pokémon to use. And I am willing to be a good sport about that, because completed battles are what count regardless of outcome, but it does make me feel slightly frustrated that I went to so much trouble getting on board with the collecting treasures hype only to be barred from using a single one now. It took me the same kind of time and effort to work on getting those items as it did for others to get their Pokémon, and I had no way of knowing a system would later come out that excluded one and not the other.

    disclaimer: in case people get the wrong idea, I'm not angry, I just think the whole thing is a bit boring, even if I had a better team I'd still find it so, and also slightly confusing (I have trouble keeping up with the maths of it in my head across multiple days of replies that it takes to finish a battle but that's more a matter of needing a coded system on the site end to do it for you and that would cost money, so I totally get that might not be an option). I guess it's a bit like how not everyone in other types of games wants to play the same way, some people are mages and some are archers etc, I'm just suggesting that item or adopt could both be viable approaches to the same end goal.
     
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  20. POKE

    POKE Ace Trainer

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    1v1 or 3v3 or 6v6 single type match only: only single types allowed

    1v1 or 3v3 or 6v6 dual type match only: only dual types allowed

    Make for duel types in 1v1 the special move does 5 damage instead of 6 as this will make the match slightly longer and still keep it as a powerful move
     
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